- May 06, 2024
- Gambling
It’s a trick question. The answer is ALWAYS! But sadly, not everyone sees it that way. Jody Bechtold, CEO at The Better Institute, joins the show to discuss how various generations respond to the proliferation of gambling access in the US. Jody’s experience and expertise in gambling disorder treatment is well respected and she is recognized internationally as one of the leading experts on gambling addiction.
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Transcript:
Speaker 1 (Shane Cook)
Everybody, welcome to Wager Danger, a podcast where we explore gambling and the harm that occurs when it becomes more than just recreation. I’m Shane Cook, Gambling Disorder program director at Gateway Foundation. And on this episode, we’re very pleased to welcome the one and only Jody Bechtold. Jody is the CEO of the Better Institute located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and is dedicated to helping individuals better themselves.
Jody and I explore the proliferation of gambling apps and how they affect the behavior of people who use them, most notably the younger folks who’ve grown up with legalized gambling. Gambling has become so normalized to our younger population that they fail to recognize that sports betting is actually gambling. This normalization shouldn’t be a surprise either, considering that about 20% of all advertising during broadcast sports is promoting sports betting. From baby boomers to Gen X to millennials to Gen Z.
Every generation handles the stigma and shame of gambling addiction differently. But the most important thing is to have the conversation, because it’s important to realize that everyone has a different idea about what constitutes problem gambling. As a follow up to our episode. I’d encourage you to have a look at Jodi’s TEDTalk, luck, skill and the rise of gambling.
We’ll have a link in the show notes below. But now we’re thrilled to have her here with us on Wager Danger. Jody, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (Jody Bechtold)
Thanks, Shane. Really excited to be here.
00;01;43;09 – 00;02;09;16
Speaker 1
And we’re excited to have you here. Had the opportunity as as well as maybe some of our listeners have had the opportunity to listen to you in the past. And I can say every time that you’re at a conference and I listen to you speak, I one, Just amazing the content and the experiences that you’ve had. And two, I always learn something.
00;02;09;17 – 00;02;37;23
Speaker 1
So one thing that I thought might be interesting, especially for our listeners, is to provide a little bit of background on how you gravitated towards gambling disorder in particular in terms of, yeah, that particular field in behavioral health and maybe kind of walk us through the progression of how you got there and what it is you’re currently involved in and what you’re doing today with the Better Institute.
00;02;37;25 – 00;03;06;11
Speaker 2
Yeah, sure. Some people might have seen my TEDx talk and that kind of gives a little preview. I actually started in substance use disorder treatment space, and I’m located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and it was when Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania decided to do expanded legalized gambling and bring in casinos across the state for the first time. I was like, Maybe I want to learn a little bit more about this.
00;03;06;11 – 00;03;27;27
Speaker 2
You know, I’m in the addictions field already. Maybe I can, you know, this will be new to me. Might not be new to everybody else. I didn’t know. So I went to go take a training and I learned that I had to go to three different states to take all these trainings because Pennsylvania didn’t have any trainings on, you know, gambling disorders.
00;03;28;00 – 00;03;53;27
Speaker 2
And I started to meet people in what I call this really small but mighty space of problem gambling treatment. And it was I was like, wow, these are my people. I really like this. And I just got focused on the training, focused on what it takes to get certified. And I started to work with my clients in substance use disorder and talk more a lot more about gambling.
00;03;53;27 – 00;04;20;27
Speaker 2
And that’s when I realized they were doing a lot of gambling and we were never, ever taught how to screen for it, how to talk about it as a co-occurring or a cross addiction or anything. So it was really early stages, given that this was, you know, 27, 28, which really wasn’t that long ago. So from there, all of a sudden I was like, I really like the problem gambling space.
00;04;21;00 – 00;04;46;12
Speaker 2
And I decided to do private practice by myself. And, you know, it’s kind of like, be careful because you don’t really hang a shingle that says Gamblers come here because you really you know, at that time wouldn’t fill up your caseload with just gambling disorder. So I just kept doing more public speaking. I was doing a lot of public awareness talks.
00;04;46;15 – 00;05;14;17
Speaker 2
I was talking with clients that came to me for other reasons. And little by little, the word got out that I was, you know, the clinician that knew about problem gambling. I was fortunate enough to meet with some individuals that are members of gay. And, you know, I’ll never forget when I went to a G.A. meeting and the gentleman said, I want to introduce you to Jodi.
00;05;14;19 – 00;05;44;13
Speaker 2
She’s a clinician treating problem gambling. She needs us and we need her. And it was just it was just very powerful to realize, you know, how important doing problem gambling as a clinician, but really understanding the self-help and the self support side of things and really coming together. And so I never looked back. I have never looked back since, you know, just constantly doing lots of trainings, education, advocacy work.
00;05;44;16 – 00;05;56;25
Speaker 2
And people are really surprised to know that as the CEO of the group practice that I have now, I still carry a full caseload too. It’s kind of shocking for yeah, I still.
00;05;56;27 – 00;05;59;12
Speaker 1
I just I didn’t realize that.
00;05;59;14 – 00;06;21;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, about 20 to 25 people a week in addition to all the other things that I do. So I want to stay current and relevant to what’s going on. I think that’s really important in, you know, doing any of the trainings or the public speaking that I do as well. But you asked me about kind of the better Institute, right?
00;06;21;06 – 00;06;49;17
Speaker 2
I was in private practice for by myself, and I was realizing that I had to, you know, make referrals for a family member because I was treating the individual with a gambling disorder or I was making a referral for couples or relationship counseling at one point or family counseling. And a colleague of mine came to me and said, you know, I really want to own a private practice someday.
00;06;49;20 – 00;07;22;26
Speaker 2
And we don’t even remember now how it happened. It’s kind of one of those conversations where you meet and you have a a brainstorming session on the back of a napkin at a restaurant and write stuff down. And that becomes the thing you want to frame forever. And we just said, let’s let’s create a group practice and let’s add clinicians or trained clinicians to really be able to treat problem gambling so that for the majority of referrals that we get, we can satisfy all their needs throughout their journey.
00;07;22;29 – 00;07;44;25
Speaker 2
So we kind of have a saying now that for every one referral we have three because we help the family member or loved one, the individual themself with a gambling disorder and ultimately if there’s family or or relationship counseling. And our motto is to save one family at a time. So that is really kind of where the better institute came from.
00;07;44;25 – 00;07;46;17
Speaker 2
It’s where you go to get better.
00;07;46;19 – 00;07;55;05
Speaker 1
That’s great story. So how long has it been since you transitioned from private practice into the Better Institute?
00;07;55;07 – 00;08;13;00
Speaker 2
We made the transition in 2018. I’ve actually had a private practice since about 2005. Okay, So I was kind of doing that in a solo for quite some time, as well as doing a lot of teaching at the university level and things like that.
00;08;13;02 – 00;08;23;09
Speaker 1
So it sounds like the Better Institute is, is really a concept that allows you to cover a lot of ground instead of being in one particular area. Right.
00;08;23;12 – 00;08;45;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. It wasn’t, you know, obviously we treat the whole person. And so when people come in maybe for a gambling disorder, we’re able to help them in many other ways. So all of our clinicians are, you know, trained with, you know, the standard mental health and addiction background as well as in a different interventions for other potential disorders.
00;08;45;27 – 00;09;09;19
Speaker 2
But what’s really been shocking to me is how many referrals we get on a weekly basis, specifically saying I have a gambling problem or my loved one has a gambling problem. Can you please help us? So, you know, a lot of a lot of practitioners you would talk to might say, I don’t see that many people with gambling disorder.
00;09;09;22 – 00;09;20;13
Speaker 2
You know, I have to screen for it. I have to look for it. But we’re really seeing a lot more people just straight up saying, I know I have a problem and I’m ready to get help.
00;09;20;15 – 00;10;01;22
Speaker 1
So that’s interesting know, I want to explore that a little bit more because that’s really a topic of conversation I have with with some of my colleagues when I’m out at these conferences and things. Do you find that maybe that differs state by state or are you starting to see that that’s that’s becoming the norm just across all the states where gambling has enhanced legalized legalization of gambling, whether it be online sports betting or, you know, having slots available at the corner grocery store, so on and so forth.
00;10;01;22 – 00;10;05;02
Speaker 1
I mean, what what would you attribute that to?
00;10;05;04 – 00;10;33;17
Speaker 2
I think there’s a couple of different ways to look at that. Pennsylvania, near where I am, is one of the first four states to have such expanded legalized gambling after the Supreme Court overturned the professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. So we were ahead of many states. I know Illinois also has a lot of online and, you know, many forms of gambling and see that some other states might be further behind.
00;10;33;19 – 00;11;18;24
Speaker 2
And so they haven’t felt that momentum growing yet is is one way of looking at it. Again, we’re already up at 38 states and D.C. that now have sports betting in some form, whether it’s brick and mortar online or both. So we’re going to we’re going to see these trends across states for sure. The other thing is, I think we’re doing a better job at marketing and getting into the social media side of things, getting making sure that our SEO is really good with our website because this is a younger generation that is asking for help and they tend to do it first and foremost through Google and, you know, using technology.
00;11;18;26 – 00;11;32;07
Speaker 2
And and so I think just even that technology or digital presence is helping to get people the care they need faster or, you know, point them in the right direction sooner.
00;11;32;10 – 00;11;53;29
Speaker 1
Right. Well, I know here in Illinois, we’ve done a tremendous amount. There’s been a tremendous effort to get the word out. Our campaign for Illinois, at least, is are you really winning? And it’s it’s front and center. It’s become front and center over the last year, year and a half. And I think people are starting to catch on to it.
00;11;54;02 – 00;12;20;24
Speaker 1
The branding is very similar to the gambling operators or at least some of the online sportsbooks. So I think that helps bring in some recognition and just being out anecdotally, having conversations with people out in the public areas that I visit, people are more aware of it. I was just curious, you know, from your perspective, how much of how much is driven by that awareness?
00;12;20;24 – 00;12;35;29
Speaker 1
And what what I’m hearing you say is at least your experience in Pennsylvania has been that that helps drive it. And then, you know, to a certain extent, I would believe that word of mouth has something to do with it as well.
00;12;36;02 – 00;13;03;18
Speaker 2
Yet word of mouth is big. The more individuals are professionals across both, you know, mental health and study treatment, they’re getting trained in problem gambling, not necessarily to treat it as a primary, but to understand that it could be, you know, a secondary addiction or, you know, a way that people might get into gambling, as you know, because they’re not drinking or doing substances anymore.
00;13;03;21 – 00;13;29;03
Speaker 2
So there’s a lot more awareness across all of the professions compared to how siloed it used to be between mental health and addiction. So I think that’s a big key. The campaigns are an interesting one. Certain states are really hitting it just really well, like you’re describing with Illinois. Other states not quite there yet, not ramped up quite enough.
00;13;29;06 – 00;13;52;18
Speaker 2
You know, if you talk to younger people and you’re trying to screen and you’re using the word gambling, they’re going to say no. But if you say sports betting, they’re going to say yes. So I think some of the the, you know, advocacy and getting the word out, we have to be really careful of our vocabulary and who are targeting as another way to spread the word.
00;13;52;21 – 00;14;17;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s a good point. And you’ve mentioned that before. I’ve heard you talk about this. Can you help people understand what you mean when some of the younger population that we come in contact with, there’s maybe a there’s a reluctance to classify some of these activities as gambling among young people? And why is this?
00;14;17;17 – 00;14;42;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. YOUNGER Well, because they’ve grown up, you know, with with fantasies, sports. They’ve grown up watching, you know, their peers, their their parents, their aunts, uncles, what have you talking about? You know, daily fantasy sports teams and things like that. So they’re they’re really focused on the sports side of it, not even realizing that it’s considered gambling in some regards.
00;14;42;28 – 00;15;14;00
Speaker 2
And so the words matter part. My partner, he did a survey of young athletes, 14 U. Hockey players. And the very first question was, are you you know, do you participate in any type of gambling and list of things? 0% said yes. And then the next question was, you know, have you ever done any sports betting on, you know, on an app like DraftKings or FanDuel?
00;15;14;05 – 00;15;21;14
Speaker 2
And 46% said yes. Like, that’s a crazy number, right? And they don’t recognize.
00;15;21;15 – 00;15;30;24
Speaker 1
But but but I’ll be honest, I, I find that lower than what my expectation would be. I would think it might be higher.
00;15;30;27 – 00;15;33;06
Speaker 2
Well, this was 14 year old.
00;15;33;09 – 00;16;03;29
Speaker 1
Right. And I. I understand that. I’ve raised two boys, though, and and those who are. But and maybe, you know, they were both involved in sports. So I think if you’re involved in sports, you probably have maybe a little bit like higher likelihood of being involved in that, at least on some level, whether it be filling out a bracket during March Madness or just participating in some group activity among your buddies.
00;16;04;01 – 00;16;06;07
Speaker 2
And the different fantasy leagues.
00;16;06;10 – 00;16;20;20
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. So so my perspective could be skewed that way. But yeah, you’re you’re hitting almost 50% at 46%. So that’s you know, the alarm bells are going off at that point.
00;16;20;22 – 00;16;21;24
Speaker 2
Right? Right.
00;16;21;25 – 00;16;47;26
Speaker 1
So understanding that youth population is a vulnerable group. I suspect one of the one of the ways to have an impact there is to get in front of or get messages to the parents. Have you had any experience or what has been your experience in reaching out or doing that particular outreach to the parents of students or youth of that age?
00;16;47;28 – 00;16;55;24
Speaker 1
And having this discussion about potential problems with gambling in that age demographic?
00;16;55;27 – 00;17;33;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, we found that it’s it’s a difficult conversation to have at the current state of where we are with problem gambling or gambling in general. In sports betting, we’re finding that if we do more of a passive approach or getting better buy in. And so an example of that would be that if you’re talking to, you know, the youth that are involved in any type of schools for sports, talking to them about how to have better performance and mental performance, they’re really clued in and they really want to become, you know, better athletes or better players.
00;17;33;19 – 00;17;58;07
Speaker 2
And then adding to that whole conversation, things that make them more at risk or vulnerable and then being able to talk about gambling is one of the key things that would make them more vulnerable. That tends to get more buy in from the youth than, shall I say, the the Don’t do drugs campaign approach. That really didn’t work where they said, you know, this is your brain on drugs.
00;17;58;10 – 00;18;33;05
Speaker 2
And with parents, what’s really interesting that I did not anticipate where parents were calling worried about their child or, you know, teenage you’re saying I’m worried that my teenager might have a gambling problem. And I would say, okay, well, what makes you say that? And they would say, well, they spent all the money. They won gambling already. And I would say, okay, so how how how are they gambling if they’re underage in their youth?
00;18;33;06 – 00;19;14;18
Speaker 2
Right. And then they sheepishly say, well, we created an account on the app and let them use it. So there’s this, you know, lack of understanding. And at the parent level that gambling still has to be of legal age. So that’s how much we’ve normalized it. Unfortunately, with this this younger group and parents are then saying, I’m worried only because they, you know, rapidly spent money that they won gambling or we’ll see parents that literally are, you know, sitting with their their their youth saying, hey, what do you think about the game this weekend?
00;19;14;18 – 00;19;40;18
Speaker 2
What should we play? What should we bet? And so they’re talking to their kids and doing it together, right as a as like a family thing. Now, we’ve heard this, you know, decades ago when people would talk about I you know, my grandfather taught me or my uncle taught me how to gamble. This is just on a very different level given the way we can gamble today.
00;19;40;21 – 00;20;10;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. The access to it alone is is very different. If you, you know, just thinking back to, you know, I’ll use myself as an example. When I had an uncle that was that enjoyed playing cards, and whenever we go to visit, we’d sit down to play gin gin rummy for points and things like that. So but that was a very different that didn’t always have access to that.
00;20;10;05 – 00;20;37;10
Speaker 1
So, you know, we play for a living and I kind of forget how to play when I wasn’t around until the next. Right, Right. So it’s not something that’s readily available, whereas today you’ve got it in your pocket and you can pull it out. And just if you’re aware, you can do it. So really crazy. What are some of the other ways that we can get to the youth, to this youth population?
00;20;37;10 – 00;20;52;01
Speaker 1
Then I said, targeting the teachers in the schools, the coaches, maybe for those kids that are engaged in activities who are. And have you seen in your programs that are have been successful at that?
00;20;52;03 – 00;21;19;19
Speaker 2
You know, it’s really hard to get into the schools unless you’re already in right. And so I think we’re really challenged right now with having the right messaging or the right programing for maybe the groups that are already in the schools. They might be trying to say gambling when you should be saying sports betting. There’s a program called Stacked Deck that is used.
00;21;19;21 – 00;21;52;27
Speaker 2
It’s met with mixed results. You know, I would really like to see some more funding put around better programing for this particular youth demographic to figure out how can we really get to them and get them to talk about these things and get to understand how they might be at risk when they’re seen that everywhere? You know, most people are doing streaming on their phones or they’re watching, you know, a game or something on their phone and the sports spread is going across the bottom of the screen.
00;21;53;02 – 00;22;38;22
Speaker 2
The whole time. I just read an article from the U.K. that they figured out both, you know, active advertising plus the passive or subliminal advertising with all the sponsorship that any sporting event. One fifth of it is gambling advertisements. All right. So we’ve got to find a way to combat that. We’ve got to find a way to even, you know, do some better policy around limiting some of that because we can’t just have it so socially acceptable and out there and normalized in such a way and then have this tiny little programs that we’re trying to say, hey, but we want to talk about this and can we get in with the teachers?
00;22;39;00 – 00;22;51;05
Speaker 2
Can we get in with the coaches? Can we get in with the teams? Right. We’ve got to find a way to to do even more than that if we’re going to really be successful at this next generation that’s going to age into adulthood.
00;22;51;07 – 00;23;15;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s yeah, I agree. I think it’s I think it’s a challenge to get there. And I know there are some programs like you mentioned the stacked deck and that that there’s a couple of agencies within Illinois that have individual programs that are targeted at youth as well, and they’re starting to make a difference in their local communities and starting to branch out a lot.
00;23;15;14 – 00;23;29;02
Speaker 1
So I it’s going to take a groundswell at some point to to really have an impact and and start making a major impact, I should say, or at least that’s my opinion. Yeah, but.
00;23;29;04 – 00;23;33;25
Speaker 2
And we need we need the research the research dollars behind it to also.
00;23;33;25 – 00;23;34;25
Speaker 1
Say exactly is.
00;23;34;25 – 00;23;45;08
Speaker 2
Effective. It always seems that the research and the treatment is delayed now until everybody says, wait, we might have we might have overstepped, we should do more of this. You know.
00;23;45;10 – 00;24;30;14
Speaker 1
And so so youth, I think is is a particular target of of interest where if we can arrest arrest some of the thinking early on in the development cycle can pay dividends down the road. But as you move up that the food chain there or as you progress up the scale, the age scale, if you want to call it that and you get into that early twenties to late twenties individual there, I see that we’ve got a big challenge there, especially among male population that are engaged, I mean, fully engaged in sports betting right now.
00;24;30;17 – 00;24;40;03
Speaker 1
And that seems to be the the target demographic for all of the advertising is that even though everybody’s being exposed to it, I mean, that’s that’s the target.
00;24;40;05 – 00;25;11;18
Speaker 2
Yeah, the research there’s a lot of research that’s supporting the average ages 26 male sports bettor tends to be educated so college degree and disposable income, which I always would love, you know, to understand that. But what that really means is they don’t have a lot of those life expenses yet. They’re not coupled up. They’re not, you know, raising a family yet, but they have a good income because they’re educated.
00;25;11;18 – 00;25;42;25
Speaker 2
And so to them, they have a lot of money to do whatever they want with because they don’t have all those expenses. And that’s the group that I see the most right now coming in for care is that they’re like, What the heck happened? So how did this happen to me? Most of the comments are I was doing okay, just doing, you know, daily fantasy sports here and there or a sports league with my friend until it went online.
00;25;42;27 – 00;26;17;05
Speaker 2
So we know there’s something about being online because then it’s on your phone, it’s on your computer or tablet or what have you. And that group, that age group is so comfortable with technology that is I call it the crack cocaine of gambling at this point, you know, 26 to 32, the amount of financial devastation that is caused by the gambling for these individuals and oftentimes their families, because many of the families will rescue them or bail them out the first time.
00;26;17;08 – 00;26;53;01
Speaker 2
And only after the second time of getting into financial devastation do they then come to someone like me for professional help. So that is absolutely a group that we’ve got to have a lot more prevention and early intervention. You know, public awareness, marketing, whatever, because they’re seeing so much of it in the gambling space. Many don’t even know how to watch sports without having gambled on it because they’ve been doing, you know, some form or for such a long time.
00;26;53;03 – 00;27;17;23
Speaker 2
And while I’d love to help people return to being a fan, right. Some of these individuals were never just a fan. They always knew there had to be some discussion about, you know, points over under who’s on what team, what are their staff, does that make them better? All in a way to, you know, feed into what ultimately now is the sports betting world.
00;27;17;25 – 00;27;22;29
Speaker 2
So it’s it’s an interesting group and it’s it’s it’s difficult. It’s sad.
00;27;22;29 – 00;27;31;25
Speaker 1
Yeah. Do you feel like we’re making some progress there? Is there too early to tell or are we reaching everybody in that space?
00;27;31;28 – 00;28;07;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, good question. I think it’s too early to tell. I’m a little frustrated that the research is showing mostly white males sports bettors are the ones that are coming in for help. Because I want to know what about everybody else that isn’t a white male? Where are they going? What are their struggles? We do know that a lot of some of the advertising that’s coming out of like a DraftKings, FanDuel barstool kind of organization is now starting to target minorities in a different way with the free play and things like that.
00;28;07;24 – 00;28;28;20
Speaker 2
So we want to make sure, you know, are we reaching them? Are the campaigns, you know, awareness campaigns are resonating with them? Do they say, okay, I’ll go too, you know, go get help because they look like me or I feel that they’re relatable. I think it’s too early to tell. But I think I think we need to put a lot more emphasis on this right now.
00;28;28;22 – 00;29;02;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would tend to agree. I think, about how here in the U.S. we’re a little bit behind, say, Europe and Australia and the introduction of online sports gambling and the accessibility to it. But have you seen anything that shows a direct correlation over time between access to it and the growth? Like is there a two year or two and a half year, three year lag to the number of people there reporting a problem gambling or a gambling disorder?
00;29;02;20 – 00;29;07;05
Speaker 1
And and does that continue to rise or does it level off at some point?
00;29;07;07 – 00;29;10;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it’s too early to tell.
00;29;10;21 – 00;29;11;25
Speaker 1
Okay. Still.
00;29;11;27 – 00;29;12;26
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;29;12;29 – 00;29;13;13
Speaker 1
Okay.
00;29;13;14 – 00;29;52;19
Speaker 2
It really is. Because again, you have states, you know, legalizing this different you know, years. So you know what what the first four states to look like is very different than what you know, states 35, 36 and 37 and 38 look like. Right. What we’ve what we do now, like it just came out recently in my state that one of the highest revenues of, you know, since the expansion of legalized gambling I think it was 7.7 billion for the year last year, which are crazy, staggering numbers.
00;29;52;21 – 00;30;22;15
Speaker 2
And we’re also seeing the help line calls increasing exponentially. So we definitely see states like Pennsylvania and New Jersey are reporting their help line calls are really increasing. Illinois did a really good study released, I think it was last year, you know, talking about how many individuals are endorsing gambling and all of that. So the problem overall, though, is we need this to be at the federal level.
00;30;22;17 – 00;30;46;25
Speaker 2
And there’s no federal oversight for gambling disorders like we have for mental health and substance. And without that federal oversight, we can only talk about, you know, this research or that researcher, this state or that state. There’s nothing that’s happening at a national level time and time and time and time again that we can say, here are the trends.
00;30;46;25 – 00;31;24;20
Speaker 2
It’s, you know, stabilize and it’s increasing. You know, we’re constantly comparing apples to oranges. And it’s very frustrating when you think about how much revenue is really generated from all this. So, yeah, I know the National Council on Problem Gambling has the GRIT Act in legislation they’re proposing, which would bring this to a national level and it would allocate some of the revenue, you know, earned from gambling to go to research, to go to treatment across the board, you know, and other programs.
00;31;24;22 – 00;32;01;09
Speaker 2
Then we don’t have 48 states that do things slightly different because I think that’s a huge problem because we really don’t have that longitudinal information. And our country’s very big. Right. You know, sometimes I say to people, we have 50 different states making decisions where when you compare it to UK or Australia, it’s still very centralized in a way they’re able to pass in a legislation and it applies to the whole country immediately.
00;32;01;11 – 00;32;02;00
Speaker 1
Right.
00;32;02;02 – 00;32;19;06
Speaker 2
And we don’t have that. Ours is still, you know, one state does this, another state does that. And I my favorite example is look at self-exclusion programs. There’s literally like 48 different self-exclusion programs across the country.
00;32;19;08 – 00;32;20;09
Speaker 1
Right.
00;32;20;11 – 00;32;28;18
Speaker 2
Just, you know, really unnecessary at this at this time in 2024 of this recording.
00;32;28;20 – 00;32;53;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because as as a constituency we’re mobile. Right. And so we can, you know, we can move from one state to the next. And what I mean by that is you can sign off of an exclusion document, right? And, and self-exclusion yourself in Illinois. But then you could just drive to Pennsylvania and play there, right?
00;32;53;27 – 00;33;24;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, we see that definitely across so many states. You know, when people live in, you know, near a border. My most recent challenge was somebody that was in Philadelphia that needed to self-exclusion in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, Delaware and New Jersey because they were also easy to drive to. And the the sportsbooks operated in all those states. Do you know how cumbersome it is to tell someone to do that in five different states?
00;33;24;15 – 00;33;29;14
Speaker 1
Well, yeah. And not only that, each states process is different, I’ll bet.
00;33;29;17 – 00;33;30;13
Speaker 2
Very different.
00;33;30;13 – 00;33;43;26
Speaker 1
And it’s just an additional burden on the individual who is willing to self exclude, probably with the idea that if you make it easy for me, I’m ready to do it now. Right.
00;33;43;28 – 00;34;12;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. If you take if you take Pennsylvania, you can self exclude from your computer on all forms of gambling, both brick and mortar and online. You can do the same thing in New Jersey. And then if you go to Delaware, you can’t do the same thing that way. Or even Illinois. You can’t do it 100% online. Right. You still have to go and meet with somebody.
00;34;12;13 – 00;34;39;13
Speaker 2
Right. So there’s got to be there’s got to be a, you know, a push in the future, ideally in the near future, to standardize self-exclusion across the country. You know, so I know that at the national level, there’s a lot of talk of these types of things. You know, a national one 800 number national self-exclusion, you know, national legislature for, you know, research.
00;34;39;15 – 00;34;42;19
Speaker 2
But nothing’s actually happening yet.
00;34;42;22 – 00;35;07;05
Speaker 1
Well, I, I kind of feel like at some point we’ll get there. Hopefully it’s sooner rather than later. I think most most of us that are in this space and working from a a preventative approach or an outreach approach to get the word out are kind of kind of recognized. This is one of the steps we need to get to.
00;35;07;07 – 00;35;18;20
Speaker 1
And I think people working it at the state levels also understand the need for a consistent approach. So hopefully working together, yes, we will get there.
00;35;18;23 – 00;35;43;12
Speaker 2
When you think about it, you know, before 2018, we really wanted to have federal oversight. We wanted to have a lot of this consistency. And but, you know, it was a harder conversation to have with 38 states and counting. It’s really hard to not have this conversation and get the attention. So I really feel like the time is now way more than it’s ever been before.
00;35;43;14 – 00;35;52;23
Speaker 2
And, you know, it’s up to us to really push our states and the national entities to really keep moving forward with this.
00;35;52;26 – 00;36;34;23
Speaker 1
So I want to go. There was a topic I what I had intended for us to explore a little bit. And I wanted to get your thoughts on this. And and we’ve covered some of this already through our discussion, but just not overtly talked about this. And the only reason I want to bring this up is I do a lot of community outreach activity throughout the state, and I’ll go to different events and and set up a space where I can actually talk to people among the public and talk about gambling disorder and, you know, potentially treatment options for that if you and it may involve doing some light screening with an individual there so
00;36;34;23 – 00;36;56;18
Speaker 1
we can have a have a deeper conversation about it. But doing that over the course of the last year and a half, two years, what I’ve what I’ve seen is an overall indifference in some cases to gambling addiction, where a lot of people think, it’s not that big of a deal. You know, everybody kind of I hear the comment a lot.
00;36;56;20 – 00;37;23;29
Speaker 1
Everybody gambles a little bit every now and then. And to me, that just highlights that, you know, some people look at this as something they’re very indifferent about. Do you do you feel like that that’s consistent or that you’ve had consistent experiences or do you feel like the tide is turning and people are starting to recognize, hey, you know, this is this is something we need to take a closer look at.
00;37;23;29 – 00;37;28;26
Speaker 1
This is something that we need to focus and develop programing for.
00;37;28;29 – 00;38;07;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, great question. Again, I appreciate that because there’s two answers to that. There was some recent research from I forget who came out. I think it was came out of Canada and they were looking at stigma and the research did a really you know, and I apologize to anybody who’s listening to this if I mess it up a little bit because I don’t have it in front of me, but it was really looking at how do people view something like schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, alcohol use disorder and gambling disorder?
00;38;08;01 – 00;38;30;13
Speaker 2
And they would ask, you know, the individuals that were being surveyed did they think that people had control over these things? And so they didn’t feel that it was that people had control over whether or not they got schizophrenia, whether or not they had OCD, a little bit on the fence about whether or not they could control whether they had alcohol.
00;38;30;13 – 00;38;56;26
Speaker 2
But it was overwhelming. Of course, they had control whether they had a gambling disorder. And you can really feel the difference with it’s not your fault that you have this disorder to its absolutely 100% something you could have avoided. And so, you know, we have to think about that stigma and it’s very real. And then we have to apply that to different age groups so, you know, the different generations.
00;38;56;29 – 00;39;23;00
Speaker 2
So we’re definitely going to see baby boomers, maybe the Gen Xers really feeling like it’s your fault if this happens to you, because they they didn’t grow up with as much discussion around mental health and addiction and getting help these things. Then you’re going to see something different with millennials and Gen Xers in terms of they really do love their mental health services.
00;39;23;00 – 00;39;42;29
Speaker 2
They want mental health services just to be preventative in many ways. And so they’re more likely to see this as it you know, they understand why people get into trouble with gambling. They don’t see it as you should have been able to control it as much. And they want to make sure that they’re supportive and that there’s help.
00;39;43;02 – 00;40;20;11
Speaker 2
So lots of generalizing in that. In that statement I just made, you can always find exceptions to it, but I think the generational characteristics better, this indifference or this tide is turning and we’re more aware and we want to make sure that people get help. And I see that at a at a clinical level when I have some of these younger individuals where they say, Well, I sent an email and told all my friends or I sent a text, I should say, and told all my friends that I have a gambling problem and I want I’m out for the season.
00;40;20;11 – 00;40;39;06
Speaker 2
And, you know, as was the phrase, and I couldn’t believe the overwhelming support that I got from all of my friends, They said, We’re here for you. You know, we understand that’s a very different story than some of my clients that are older that would say, I can’t tell my friends any of this. I can’t share this with anybody.
00;40;39;12 – 00;41;06;03
Speaker 2
I have to be careful who my, my, my family and my loved ones are allowed to talk to about this because we don’t want this to get out that I have a gambling problem. Right. So that stigma becomes self stigma for many people. And sure, you know, then perpetuate, you know, what that that there should be, you know, individuals should know how to control this and there must be something morally wrong with them if they can’t.
00;41;06;06 – 00;41;35;25
Speaker 1
Wow. That’s that’s great. I’ve never heard it characterized that way, but it makes complete sense to me. And it reflects the conversations I’ve had, too, with baby boomers, maybe even before the baby boom era, all the way down to current youth. So I think that makes a ton of sense. So I appreciate that. I’ve never really I’ve never really taken the time to kind of compartmentalize it and put it in in each of those as generational response.
00;41;35;28 – 00;41;37;29
Speaker 1
But that makes a ton of sense.
00;41;38;02 – 00;42;00;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, there’s a lot we can learn. Looking at the generation all characteristics for sure. What what’s their world perspective and what makes them think certain ways? And that, again, would be really important and very impactful in raising awareness. You know, is the message targeted to the right age group in a way that really resonates with them?
00;42;00;14 – 00;42;25;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I really appreciate the conversation here today. I just want to. One thing I wanted to wrap up on is where do you see yourself spending more of your time lately and where do you find yourself gravitating towards as you move forward into the next five years as it pertains to disorder gambling?
00;42;25;21 – 00;42;50;04
Speaker 2
Well, I still want to work with individuals. I still want to have a caseload and, you know, help anybody. I just I really believe that we are here to save lives. And I. I never want to get distracted from that mission. I do still want to do a lot of training and public speaking. I’ve expanded a lot recently to even more global.
00;42;50;06 – 00;43;12;07
Speaker 2
I do some work with the Phil in the Philippines right now and in Iceland, and it’s really, you know, it’s all the same. Everybody’s struggling with it because it’s online, because, you know, families are impacted so much from this. So I just want to, you know, keep being a voice for those who don’t quite have a voice yet and work.
00;43;12;07 – 00;43;31;05
Speaker 2
You know, I train as many new and emerging clinicians to learn about problem gambling, to want to treat problem gambling and really, you know, focus on the workforce development side of things as as part of my mission as well. So, yeah, it’s a great question. Thanks for asking. Yeah.
00;43;31;07 – 00;43;58;13
Speaker 1
Well, it’s great insight too. I appreciate you sharing. I do know and I want to give you an opportunity to talk about this as one of the areas where you have a particular interest in is the financial literacy side of recovering from gambling disorder. What are some of the things that Better Institute has been involved in in terms of advancing the financial literacy?
00;43;58;15 – 00;44;00;08
Speaker 1
Post gambling disorder?
00;44;00;10 – 00;44;25;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s great. You know, we do a lot with working with finances. It’s so important because many people come in for care thinking that they don’t have a gambling problem, they have a money problem, and that’s really where it starts. And so part of being trained and certified to treat gambling disorders is to be very comfortable getting into people’s business about their finances early and often.
00;44;25;04 – 00;44;53;09
Speaker 2
And I know not all clinicians are as comfortable with that. And so I’m just really excited that I got to team up and work and advise. And you had them on one of your other podcasts, Alex DeMarco from GAM Fund, and I think Garmin is a fantastic program. It’s it’s mostly for providers to really, you know, be teamed up with a certified financial planner and to bring their client into it.
00;44;53;15 – 00;45;17;01
Speaker 2
And the key to that difference is that providers like me get to talk with a financial advisor and everything that we learn, we then carry with us for any future client. So it’s very different than just referring a client to go talk to someone. And we really don’t know what they talked about or what’s happening. We’re able to really keep it as as a as a main focus of the treatment.
00;45;17;03 – 00;45;48;27
Speaker 2
And so we’re seeing a lot of a lot of change around, you know, the financial literacy side and good good focus, good emphasis on helping individuals have a better relationship with their money. You know, I’m just I’m so fortunate I’ve been able to work with people long enough to see them from, you know, total devastation to almost, you know, hitting their goal of being out of their gambling debt and just had a session last night with a couple.
00;45;49;04 – 00;46;14;14
Speaker 2
And I just was so excited for them because they have eight months to go after this very long and painful process. And they just kept saying, we’re never getting into debt again. We’re not I’m not gambling. We’re going to raise our family. We’re very focused. We never thought we would be thankful that a gambling disorder and all the devastation would ultimately put us to a better place.
00;46;14;16 – 00;46;40;00
Speaker 2
And we see all of our friends don’t have the greatest relationship with money, and we just feel that we’re so much better equipped and prepared to, you know, raise a family now that we’ve learned all of this. And so, yeah, finances is a is a really, really important component of recovery. And I just talk about it all the time because I just think it’s just so helpful for everyone.
00;46;40;03 – 00;46;47;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s great to This has been great. Jodi, I appreciate everything. Any final thoughts before we wrap it up?
00;46;47;21 – 00;46;51;02
Speaker 2
I could probably talk for hours. So, Shane, I know we currently have.
00;46;51;08 – 00;46;52;01
Speaker 1
You know.
00;46;52;01 – 00;47;23;22
Speaker 2
A few limits in a few minutes here. I you know, there’s a couple of messages that keep coming up, you know, to parents if they’re listening, you know, be involved, become educated, you know, be involved in what your teenagers or your youth are doing or your young ones or even your adult children. And if your adult children are struggling, you know, be involved kind of, you know, help them to to find, you know, their path to treatment or to recovery.
00;47;23;25 – 00;47;49;16
Speaker 2
I think that’s so important to be able to talk about it. And, you know, my TEDx talk is is kind of old now. But my message there was have the conversation. And I still think that is a critical one, you know, with anybody, you know, family, friends, coworkers have the conversation because you don’t realize that you know, somebody you know and is close to you might be struggling, you know, in silence.
00;47;49;16 – 00;48;08;28
Speaker 2
And if you’re able to have the conversation, you might actually be able to help them open up and get care and stop suffering. Because we also know that this is a very high suicide, you know, disorder. And the more that we can have that conversation, the more that we can save someone’s life. So thanks for having me on this podcast, Shane.
00;48;08;28 – 00;48;09;21
Speaker 2
I really appreciate.
00;48;09;21 – 00;48;17;07
Speaker 1
It. I really appreciate you coming in and having the conversation with us. So I always learn a lot.
00;48;17;12 – 00;48;20;08
Speaker 2
Yes, I love doing this stuff.
00;48;20;11 – 00;48;47;16
Speaker 1
All right. Jody Bechtold, the Better Institute. We love hearing from you. So please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast. You can reach out to us directly via email at Wager Danger at Gateway Foundation dot org. Look for us on Facebook and Twitter at Recovery Gateway on LinkedIn, at Gateway Dash Foundation, or through our website at Gateway Foundation dot org Wager Danger is supported through funding in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Abuse Prevention and Recovery. And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you are a family member struggling with a gambling problem, call Gateway at 8449753663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.
