Safer Gambling Strategies | Keith Whyte

Keith joins Wager Danger to discuss the massive increase in both awareness and programs he has witnessed during his 30 years advocating for responsible gambling and preventing gambling addiction. Keith advises a global network of gaming providers, behavioral health practitioners, national, state and tribal government officials, and adjunct industries about gambling’s impact on communities and individuals.

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Shane

During our conversation, Keith mentioned the partnership between Drake and the Curacao based crypto casino Stake. Regardless of the latest controversy between Drake and Stake, the comment highlights the effect that influencers can have on individuals to engage in gambling activity and as such, the comment is still relevant to our topic. On with the show.

Keith

People with gambling problems are treated in the law, by insurance companies, by state governments much differently than people who have other addictions, particularly substance abuse addiction.

Shane

Hello everybody, and welcome to Wager Danger a podcast where we discuss gambling addiction and recovery. I’m your host, Shane Cook, Gambling disorder programs director at Gateway Foundation. And my guest on this episode is Keith Whyte. After 27 years at the helm of the National Council on Problem Gambling, Keith founded his own consulting firm, Safer Gambling Strategies, in an effort to continue promoting responsible gambling.

During his years at NCPG, Keith saw a seismic shift in access as the gambling industry adjusted to virtual casinos that fit in our pockets. This change has had a fundamental impact on how gambling addiction touches people’s lives. He also noticed an interesting statistic. Substance abuse programs currently receive approximately 335 times more funding per person than gambling addiction services.

Even though states make more money from gambling taxes than tobacco and alcohol taxes combined, and while it’s estimated that 75 to 80% of Americans gambled in the past year, public understanding of gambling addiction as a health issue has yet to keep pace. Keith and I also talk about how today’s youth learn about gambling from social media and advertising, rather than teachers or parents.

On the upside, Keith shares how he thinks artificial intelligence can help discover gambling problems before they spiral out of control, as well as how some groundbreaking partnerships are funding gambling prevention programs nationwide. Great to have you on the show, Keith.

Keith

Oh, hey. Thanks Shane.

Shane

Yeah. I mean, so glad to have you, Keith. Now you’ve spent some time at. Yeah. And I’ve said that tongue in cheek. Spend some time at the National Council on Problem Gambling as the executive director. You were there for many years, and I want to say 30 years. I don’t know if that’s correct, but how long were you there?

Keith

Just just shy at 27, 27th October 1998. And I left in January of 2025.

Shane

Okay. That is awesome. And I know you did some great work there, and I do want to explore that, but now you’ve transitioned into a, new role. You’re the founder and president at an organization called Safer Gambling Strategies. Tell us a little bit about that and how you how you made that transition, to this organization where your focus is with that.

Keith

Well, my entire career has been spent either in government or nonprofit. And so, given the opportunity to found my own consulting firm was something I’ve been thinking about for a long time. And the timing was right. You don’t need to top of the year. So, yeah, you know, the leap was, in some ways a big one.

You know, when I left National Council, we had, 13 full time staff, you know, multimillion dollar budget. You know, hundreds of members. It was a large organization. In in the nonprofit space, in the problem gambling field, to then going and, you know, running my own shop was, which was in some ways a big, a big shift in other ways.

It wasn’t because I’m working on the same thing. So safer gambling strategies. It’s a consulting firm, and I consult on preventing problem gambling and promoting responsible gambling. So I’m working on the same issues with a lot of the same people that, I’ve been working with, you know, at NCPG and before that, at the american gaming association. So it’s really it’s a continuation of, the work that I’ve done for this past thirty years.

Shane

Yeah. So what is it about this industry that attracted you? Just in general, I because it’s it’s I find it rather unique. There there are, it’s a growing field. I will say that. I mean, over the past few years, going to conferences, the crowds are getting bigger. There’s more people attending. It’s just a natural growth pattern that has occurred.

But it hasn’t always been like that. I know you know that I’ve talked to people that have been around for many years and they say, well, you know, we’re starting to see the engines are really cranking now. And what do you think caused that?

Keith

Well, it’s a great question. That yeah, things look a lot different now than they did in 1995. When I first got to the field, but there are still some, you know, again, some some commonality, some some through line. You know, there’s always been a concern about balancing the cost and benefits, and you’re talking about this earlier, you know, how can you maximize the benefit from legalized gambling, but at the same time minimize the harm.

Right. And that that’s a that’s a dynamic conversation, emerging conversation, a conversation where there’s not necessarily right answers because that’s gonna change. And, you know, so it’s I think it’s a conversation that we have to have. And and now there’s we’re having in a much more serious level and even a national level, you know, started back in 1995.

It was really an issue for just a couple of states that maybe had recently legalized riverboat casinos. Now, since 2018, was the national broadcast advertisement for sports betting right now. Finally, I think Americans realized that gambling is a national issue. Yes, it’s a state by state, and there’s some nuances. But really, this is something that is widespread.

It’s there’s widespread participation. It’s widely available to all Americans, whether you live in a state that has a particular you know, whether we like it or not, it’s acceptable it’s available and it’s advertised. What the leap we haven’t made yet. And in the leap that I’ve been working on, in some cases for decades, is to also help Americans understand the problem.

Gambling is a national public health issue right now. So we’re at that point where, you know, people see gambling advertisements and they’re openly talking about their sports bets. You know, they do the lotteries everywhere. Participation is roughly around 75 to 80% of Americans of gambling at least once the past year. Yeah. That’s it. That’s an all time high.

But that that hasn’t yet translated into understanding that of course problem gambling is also a national public health issue. But of course, there’s millions of people have gambling problems these days, enormous stigma, and that there are all sorts of structural barriers and. People gambling problem treated in the law, you know, by insurance companies, you know, by state governments differently than people who have other, addictions, particularly substance abuse.

So there’s, you know, that that, that creating that national sense of, of problematic public health issues and removing some of that stigma easing as barriers and improving access to all that stuff. You know, that’s still that’s still coming. You know, I think it’s it’s closer than ever, but it’s yeah, it’s a generational, you know, massive social shift.

Shane

Sure. So when you say people that exhibit problem gambling or treated differently, how do you mean they’re treated differently? What do you mean when you say that? You know.

Keith

I think some of this is, is things have built up over over decades, if not centuries. So, just just as a quickly problem, gambling is specifically excluded from the Americans with Disabilities Act, popularly known as the.

Shane

Oh, so you’re talking about from a public health perspective.

Keith

You know, the NCPG has just released the results of the third national survey on gambling attitudes and gambling experiences. And that survey confirms what the previous version is in 2021 and 2018, found is that people are much more likely to stigmatize someone with a gambling disorder. You know, they don’t stigmatize people with substance abuse issues. They are less, much less effective treatment.

They don’t really understand what you mean in recovery, meaning gambling addiction in parties view changes. You know the difference between, gambling, substance abuse problem with substance control and a behavioral addiction like gambling where there’s no substance. And I think that, very poorly understand that and that there’s a lot more stigma and shame around it because of this.

00;08;51;10 – 00;09;16;13

Keith

In the gambling, the words around the substance, disorders, you know, different from, from a you know, legal lens. But the idea is from, from a public opinion when, it’s not an engage study. You know, when you look at the amount of, money dedicated to prevent and treat gambling addiction by state, it’s it’s a fraction of 1% of the amount of legalized revenue.

And so, the needed National Association of Administering Disordered Gambling Services say that that, NADGS found.

In states consistently found in the 2023 version, but.

Clearly the substance abuse, disorders, 335 times more well funded per capita would problem gambling services, even though the amount of money that the state government make from legalized gambling is significantly more than that from alcohol tobacco taxes. So there’s that really it’s it’s really disproportionate. When you look at, you know, gambling versus tobacco, the state makes a lot less money on tobacco, but provide but provide a much bigger chunk of the money that you get from tobacco courts, you know, quit lines in public health campaigns.

Yeah. There. Yeah. The state is clearly lying in the state of Illinois, clearly does not want more people smoke, even though they make it pretty. You know, the tobacco taxes. Income gambling, the state. Don’t worry. It kind of says, well, you know, the the lottery agency and we’ve legalized remote casinos. And, you know, we hope maybe you don’t play too much.

You, you know, it’s it’s just a different it’s a different message. And I’m not saying that means bad or things wrong. I’m just saying it, it it creates a difference. And I think there are we do have to change in the gambling field versus at a track, a field, track and field. But I think from almost any lens we look at in almost any when we look at this over the last decade, people with gambling problems are, had less funding.

They’re they’re treated worse, they’re more heavily stigmatized. They have less access to services. It’s not barriers. And it creates for those second and third order issues. Yeah. So people, you know, people are trying to stay out of that.

Shane

So everything that you’ve just gone through, I hear many times throughout the year. So how do we how do we get past it? I mean, it’s yeah, I, I understand that the disparity in the funding at at the level, especially when you look at what the tax revenue has versus what programs in general across the state might receive from a particular state.

And I’m not pointing at any state in particular for that. It’s just because the information is out there. You can go look at it and, you know, you can say it’s a little disparaging, between the two. So how do we tighten that? How do we get it closer, aligned where we can get more effective programs? Now, having said that, I think we’re I think we’re moving in that direction.

Are we moving fast enough? That’s the debate, right? We can always move faster. We would like to move our side, would like to move faster. The other side might want to take a let’s wait and see kind of approach. You know, is it.

Keith

So hot. How lasting.

Shane

Go ahead.

Keith

Well, one of the blessings of being in a field 30 years is I’ve seen it as an enormous progress. You know, when you look at it on a, on a yearly basis, on a monthly basis, you know, even up a weekly basis, sometimes it’s easy to get caught up in the weeds and to feel that sense of despair and hopelessness.

And but, you know, when you can, when you can pull the lens, the focus back a little bit, we can take a longer look over time. You know, you’ve seen enormous positive changes in the field. And I think that’s your question. Are we moving fast enough? Clearly not. But we’re moving faster than we ever have. And I do think there’s a snowball effect.

I think things are building. And the more programs we have, the more awareness we gain. The more, you know, sympathy and lessen the stigma. And then that increases, you know, awareness, which allows more funding. But I think at the heart of it, sharing is something about, it’s creating a social norm where responsible gambling is the standard.

It’s the social norm where people with gambling problems are not stigmatized, and especially treatment recovery is celebrated, not a market shame. And we’ve reached that point, I believe generally with, with with the, you know, we, we lionize people who recover from an opioid addiction, recovery from alcoholism. And all of us probably know someone in our lives who made that huge culture change and is doing great now.

And, you know, people are not worried about, in the same way they would be worried about someone who is in recovery from a gambling addiction because, you know, it’s not just go back to again in your work as a prevention person will tell you there’s no physical death, right? Can’t really prove that someone not gambling. And so it makes all these attitudes about relapse and recovery, I think a lot different again, but changing the changing public opinion, you know, with gambling is a little more normalized in the culture.

And right then it’s a good or bad thing. I’m just saying it is gambling is now more normalized in our culture. Maybe that allows us all the more space to have the conversation about gambling problem and about protecting yourself. The problem is about what to do if you or someone you know may have become. Because I think that conversation has been very difficult to have when most people say, well, it’s a gambling problem for someone else.

Yeah, well, and along.

Shane

With that, if you look back over history, I mean, it’s hasn’t been until just recently that gambling for the most part has been in the back room. It hasn’t been out front and center, and it’s only in the last 4 or 5 years that bam, we’re all getting hit in the face with gambling. Right. So so we’re aware of it.

At least the awareness of the accessibility of gambling is a big component to this. And I think as you mentioned, the the stigma for recovery services, regardless of whether, substance use or behavioral health issue, I think people are much more open to that, today than they were ten, 15, 20 years ago. So I think a lot of barriers are breaking down.

And, and we’re going to get there and, and I know this and I’m confident that we will I think there’s, segment of people that would like to move a lot quicker than we are. And that’s human nature. So. But we’ll get there, I believe it, I do too, but it’s.

Keith

Also it’s hard. I mean, you know, I think sometimes there are people who want to wait, not want and just, you know, make everything better. And, you know, even if we were getting the kind of funding we deserve, we have the macro council problem. Gambler would say the state should should dedicate 1% of, of gambling revenues to the problem.

So, you know, no, no way that would be, you know, $1 million, give or take, you know, so if we suddenly then we certainly just injected $100 million more into the system. That would not solve all problems. You know it would you know it. So these are complex issues that has to do with deep, bits of our biology, our technology, you know, our culture.

And so it’s a it’s a journey. And I understand, I’m someone who wants to move a lot more quickly, but also understand this is a this is a decades long effort. And it’s it’s almost a generational shift. And these people look at to be sure it’s possible and we’re going to get there. But I just caution people that, money alone is neither the biggest billion or the biggest solution.

You know, it’s really changing public attitudes. Sure. That takes money, that part of it. But it’s by no means the.

Shane

Only, part of it. Yeah. Well, I think one of the promising things is, and I’m going to go back to part of your time on the National Council for problem Gambling is, the partnership that you were able to forge with the NFL. And, it created an opportunity for micro grants to be distributed to various providers across the United States that were engaged in unique gambling, could be gambling treatment programs, could be gambling awareness programs, might even be particular funding, particular research that would go out and advance the ball in a particular area.

But all of those things, I think, are a testament to the amount of innovation that’s occurring in in small pockets all across the country. Would you agree with that? I said. Am I characterizing that the right way? That’s the way I see it. I mean, that’s how I’m receiving it when I see, some of that, some of the great things and programs that have emerged from that particular grant and foundation in partnership with the NFL.

Keith

We’ll know that. It’s great to hear that. That was exactly the intent is to take it as an account and and get it out. And that was not without, I don’t want to say controversy, but many non-profits, when they when they these big grantees, naturally they go inward and believe that the National Council had a lot of need.

But to take in the wisdom of the board of directors to get rid of those 30, that money and to give it out to other organizations and to say, and just like you said it, you you’re gambling prevention. It was prevention efforts. And by the time I left, we funded more than, I think, 50 grants. And, and so it was intended to help, you know, bootstrap a lot of programs on the ground and then look and see, what what was working, you know, in youth gambling prevention and then whether or not those models could be replicated.

So, again, it’s a long process. You know, it takes years to get the grant and then to evaluate the outcome and, and evaluate the outcomes of the other grantees. But yeah, there it created, just a tremendous amount of opportunity at the state and local level. In a lot of cases, these different governance programs in a particular jurisdiction or for this particular population.

And, those two there are a lot of there are a lot of further down the line. So I think it was it was a strategic investment. It’s also, like I said, really empowering because of course, if you’re going to do any gambling.

Shane

Prevention work, you’ve got to be talking to the kids. Right.

Keith

And that was that was, you know, we don’t I don’t think anybody really has a magic silver bullet there either, on exactly how to talk to kids about, the dangers of gambling addiction or you know, how to, you know, would use that harm. So, yeah, there’s a lot of good stuff.

Shane

It’s certainly not that good. Yeah. For sure. And with the young adult and and child populate her children I got a look I hate to say call them children, but I mean, they are yeah. But when you look at elementary, junior high school age kids, I think in the conversations I’ve been having with other people, we’re finding programs that are out there that are getting to that age group earlier and earlier now.

So that can only help in the long run, with this as well. So it’s a multi multifaceted approach that everybody’s taking which is really encouraging what’s critical.

Keith

And I’ll just say this too, I think right now most kids are not hearing about gambling from their parents, with their teachers or even from their faith and what they are hearing about it. You’re still hearing about it from social media influencers, right? So the amount of kids, the rate right now is reading through data, you know, they which is an illegal cryptocurrency based casino, dwarfs any of the other prevention and education efforts that we’re doing now.

So I think we have to be concerned about the current generation. He’s learning about gambling the hard way by downloading apps and listening to celebrities and promoters and thinking that, you know, everybody that sports all the time. It’s not the biggest. We have a chance of getting this next generation, good prevention educational messages that really, you know, we’re pretty far behind.

And yeah, I’m worried about the damage we’ve got the good the transaction, the next generation. Assuming that we we do get comprehensive prevention youth prevention efforts, you know, in the next decade or so. You know, I. Think, I think we still we’re still going to go pretty late.

Shane

Yeah. Well, one of the things that I think I saw you recently contributed to, or were part of, it was part of an article was the emergence of new technologies and how we can leverage new technologies to perhaps intercept a little bit further upstream when kids are younger and things like that. So you’ve got two sides to the equation, right?

With the technology. You’ve got the yeah. The, the gaming industry itself, who relies heavily on new and emerging technologies to get the latest and greatest games out there, for people to start engaging with on the other side of it, we can start to look out and understand that there are some things that we can do to curtail somebodies play if we’re starting to notice certain patterns through the use of AI, we can start injecting some, mindful messaging that might come through to the player to get them to think a little bit more before they pull the handle or the proverbial handle.

Right. On, on the next one. So, you know, how do we balance those two? What are some of the advantages on both sides? And I guess, what are some of the disadvantages on either side as well? So suddenly this becomes a very broad and big question. But I think it’s one I think it’s an area where we’re going to start seeing more and more.

I mean, I, I was at, in Vegas last October for the G2 East show to see all the latest and greatest and my goodness, man, there’s some innovation out there for sure.

Keith

Oh, there it is. I mean it’s a great question. So there’s great there’s challenges with technology. And then but there’s great opportunities here on the spot gambling of it. And so I think a lot about how you can use, the algorithms now that it’s trying to maximize revenue, how you can, you know, also use that algorithm to, to minimize harm or, you know, even in a, in, in a, in a, in a real different way, to look at a player’s behavior and spot potentially market harm.

And then, you know, I’m disappointed kind of individualized to personalized interventions, you know, because I think it’s one thing to to describe billions of transactions and spot, you know, different markers of harm. You know, machines are very good at that.

You know, we get an increase in play or play at a certain time.

Next many days, consecutive play, you know, that that’s roughly standard. But, the art is looking at other factors. Other third party factors, like, for example, whether or not you have a certain personal or social characteristics that might predict year for gambling problem, you know, I guess then the real artist then is providing a tailored intervention that is appropriate that that, team or where they’re on that journey.

So, you know, it shouldn’t be changed. Okay. We detect you’ve got these markers of harm and your account automatically locked. It’s it could and should be a tailored, personalized message that. Hey, Shane, we’ve noticed that, you know, it seems like you’re playing a lot more than you do, you know, did you know that if you played it this way over the next year, your losses would be, you know, X amount of money and you told it when you started, when you sent an account that your your limit was generally $500, you’re on path to lose $50,000.

Yeah. You think maybe you should, you know, take a break. Cool off. Right. Cool. You know. So and that’s one that AI and ML uses of data. But first party data, which is transaction data as well as third party data, which is kind of like building your home, you know, you know, how much money you making like that?

Sure. You’re combining those two and then kind of then try to personalize that down because all of us should receive, you know, marketing emails or pop up, ads on social media that are for the wrong gender or, you know, very different state or for we use. But nobody wants responsibility like that. But what we want it to be is almost like a host or a good friend saying, hey, you know, same think maybe I took a break because I’ve been tweeting every day now for the past two weeks, and we just noticed that you filed for divorce, you know, so maybe those two things differently.

And that all sounds pretty, pretty utopian. But there’s there’s a lot of incredible data science happening. That’s right. But then there’s also your question. There’s also a couple of technology limits setting. Limit setting should be a opt out not an opt in. Right now most our data usage is up. Then you’ve got to find the tools on the site and you’ve got to, you know, going to activate them.

There’s this tool, or maybe just for younger players, but let’s say if you’re 21 to 25, they do this in the UK. In Ireland they’re tools that you’re automatically the tools are automatically put on your account, and you can’t opt out until you’re 25 and then you can opt out. So there’s only, you know, subtle nudges, you know, using choice architecture to help push people towards safer, healthier, sustainable choices.

And again, it it’s a broad use of technology. You can do some collusion a lot better through technology.

Shane

Right.

Keith

You know, there’s the, the world the world. There’s a lot of possibilities.

Shane

Interesting. We just had a conversation with somebody who’s who studies the brain and brain development and, the frontal lobe. So the so the opt out versus opt in, discussion for people that haven’t quite reached the age of majority, or what we think of as the age of maturity for brain development, which around 25, 26. That’s an interesting one that they’re automatically set.

So you’re, you’ve got the training wheels in place.

Keith

So exactly. So yeah. And and we can, you know, we can learn more and the more we learn, you know, maybe the, maybe that age really should be 21 to 26. Or maybe it should be 24. You know, date does huge data set to tell us that. But I think the other thing with data is that it has to be, it’s got to be transparent and ideally it has to involve third parties, because it’s one thing for a company or a government to say, oh, you know, 21 to 25, you guys got that for the age.

It’s another thing to, to say third party researchers and diversity based folks or advocate maybe on our council problem gambling to take a look at that data and say, yeah, that’s right, 18 to 20 5 to 20 1 to 26 is the right range. Because that’s when yeah. Like my old boss said that the Ada would only say trust but verify.

Shane

Right.

Keith

You know, before he took an old Reagan, he also took it from someone else, but, with, with. And if you will, misuse of data, you’ve got to have third trusted third parties involved. Universities are great for that because they have a whole tradition of ethics expense. How to how to deal with, with, with, with answering these questions in an impartial, objective way.

And nobody should just trust blindly. Again, we operate every single way. I believe that again when it’s.

It’s really.

Shane

Like, yeah, hey, I, I’m going to shift gears a little bit here. What would you describe as most challenging aspect of the work in this space between awareness, problem gambling and awareness, in contrast to responses? Well, gambling.

Keith

I think probably even terrifying. This is is the biggest challenge. Okay. The problem gambling, responsible gambling mean different things to different people. You know, I chose the name of my firm, the Safer Gambling Strategies, because that’s really where, with the term of art, internationally. And I’m hoping that’s going to be called trying to educate. Responsible gambling can be misunderstood.

It’s placing too much responsibility, on the individual.

Shane

Right. As opposed to being shared.

Keith

Yeah, I it’s absolutely right. But safer gambling, I think implies that there’s that that ever the journey never ends. You know, you can always make it a little tricky. So, the big defining this term and making making it clear that problem gambling, as an issue is different than responsible gambling, is probably one of the bigger challenges, but personally, professionally, because there’s a lot of confusion.

And again, people use the terms different ways to mean different things, right, that are okay.

Shane

Fair enough. What’s different about the work that you did for in CPG and what you’re doing with safer gambling strategies?

Keith

Not much. You know, I, I am talking about the same issues with, with a lot of the same people. You know, really, it’s, you know, some minor things about who I report to. I don’t I don’t report to a board of directors. Sure. But that was, you know, that was great because there, you know, the board, really helped keep me centered.

Boards of directors can be incredibly valuable. Sure. Staff and vice versa. Staff. The board. Board staff. And, you know, we had we had great. We built a great, system that big. It’s so it’s nice, you know, my own, but, you know, the, the issues and topics people are it’s pretty much the same.

Shane

Pretty much the same. Okay. And what is the one thing that you really try to impress upon gaming industry leaders about why responsible gambling is so important to pursue?

Keith

Yeah, I think you said exactly right. I think that is the thing I try to pass on. In the game industry to motivate responsible gambling is important change in and Caesars said responsible gambling is good ethics and good economics. She’s talking to four senior CEOs and I think that’s exactly right. You know, it’s the right thing to do.

And as Martin Luther King said, it’s always the right time to do the right thing. Great thing to do. But it’s also true that so, you know, there’s an ethical considerations are operating a product that knowingly will harm, a small but significant. percentage of that commitment to the game, increasing the debt so.

That the industry has to own that they have got a higher level of care than any other corporation. I’ve been taught to do the economic case for a couple of reasons. One, you know, to build a sustainable customer. You can’t you can’t if they’re bankrupt, they’re not going to be the same. Okay. You’re right. The other one, you know, to, attracting talent.

So, you know, we are the imperative to respond to gambling include if casinos, the gaming industry, casinos want to be inclusive choice for this new generation of tech and generation of generation is concerned about, the greater good in the companies they work for. They’ve got to have, really good responsibility for them, because otherwise they’re not going to attract, great talent.

There are a lot of other considerations, and least, not the least of which is that gambling is prohibited unless it’s legalized in the city jurisdiction. So that license, is is a privilege and it can’t be taken away. You know, we’ve seen it happen in South Carolina, for example, they abolished the, gambling industry. You know, a number of years ago, we’ve seen big, big cutbacks in the UK.

You know, other jurisdictions where, the, the operator was perceived to be out of sync with, the kind of public concerns of the population. So, these licenses are incredibly valuable, and it’s worth investing, quite frankly, a significant amount of money to manage the downside. Because that’s the only way you can get to continue to operate.

So good ethics, good economics, you know, there’s a ton of benefits, but, and most, most CEOs, it’s not like they don’t get it. It’s it’s more the commitment, okay. More it’s more now the operational side, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You got a mission statement. Tell me that you’re a senior responsible gambling person. Oh, you have a senior responsible person.

All right, well, let’s step back. But then step is to make sure that your senior staff, the only person you know, has, has, you know, has direct access to the CEO, you know, has a staff, you know. Yeah. Yeah. All those things. Again, it’s kind of geeky. It’s sort of big. But when I talk to CEOs you can pretty much tell right away.

They all say the right thing. It’s how is responsibility ingrained in corporation that if someone’s bonus, you know, based on their responsibility, performance, you know, that KPI is done.

Shane

Yeah.

Keith

And that’s where you put that relationship.

Shane

Okay. So overall, do you find that it’s improving that that that approach is improving across the industry? I gotta imagine, you know, on a continuum. Let’s go back 20, 25 years ago, probably now to this forward on the minds of people. But today it’s I gotta believe that there’s a little more mindfulness at least, and that, these programs are starting to be enacted and organizations are coming along and growing that particular division, that’s going to focus on responsible gambling.

Keith

Yeah. We’ve seen enormous progress there. Now there’s more director level as a responsible gambling engineer. See if there ever has been, you know, the national conscience.

Many years ago, I think it was seven. And it’s this is probably going back some years, and we got all seven directors responsible around the table for it for a session at the conference. That was great. Now, you’d you’d probably you’d have to have a mid-size conference room to sit down in their staff. So yeah, there’s, there’s been there’s been great progress.

It’s an ever growing and ever growing thing. You know, there could always be more progress, but, it’s been really, really, clean and, you know, that’s been I’m glad to be part of that progress. And I also hope that I’ve also seen a lot of people begin to integrate.

Shane

Yeah. So let’s flip this question around now. So we talked a little bit about the gaming industry and and their understanding problem gambling and what they’re doing to address it. On the flip side of that, if you look at what’s going on in the industry where people are serving problem gambling, the providers that are providing treatment, what would you like them to know about the gaming industry and its leadership and their efforts moving forward?

Keith

I think there’s opportunities, to partner with the industry in appropriate ways, that there’s opportunities to share that wisdom and experience so they know why problem gambling is important. Machine learning programs are important. And then there’s also an opportunity to hold your feet to the fire and to trust it that. So I think it’s a three part opportunity that, you know, the industry, has a lot of data for people to share, that can be used by researchers and people who are, to try and delve more deeply into, you know, what, where the risk factors are, in the industry also because, basically, they’re the ones that provide the gambling.

So if you’re going to if you can convince them to provide it in their life, you have to convince them to add this or add or offer something in a different way that’s going to impact people gambling problems. You know, it’s a huge opportunity. You know, there’s there’s the, and then again, you have to, there’s people on the ground who are hearing from clients, you know, if you’re consistently hearing client say, you know, X doesn’t really do a good job of offering, so you know, that feedback, of course, get the regulator or other corporate channels, advocate right there when I come back from gambling.

But it can also go directly back to industry, you know. Hey. So and so you know, you’re securing department really is just an incredible job. My last three clients, it felt really stigmatized trying to solve this exclusion them. You know you guys need to do better. And hey here’s some training. Here’s how another state here’s another property does it.

So that feedback you know treatment providers, folks in recovery helping community to really guide feedback with operators. And they but they also have to make sure for me, I mean, I think the most important job is to organizations like a CPG to be that advocate. Sure. Because, you know, frankly, you know, providing this information, you know, goes outside of the normal channel if it’s just feedback and maybe just anecdotally, but when it’s through, when it’s through a statewide, you know, nationwide advocacy organization, like, you know, an Orange County Council that provides a lot more impact for easier.

Yeah, you can get it to the right people, which is a good way to know. And so there’s there’s a huge opportunity and obligation really to be an active advocate. You know, don’t just don’t don’t just take away what anybody is saying. So it, you know, check it out. You know, make sure that it’s what it’s what’s actually happening.

And if it’s not if gambling’s not being provided in appropriate manner, if someone’s breaching the regulations, you know, there are other issues or problems, then, you know, treatment riders are going to be some of the first to hear about it. And they can do it. They can do it all. I really valuable service by making sure that people who can help make change.

Shane

Right. Well, I’ve noticed something here in Illinois. We’ve we’ve over the over the past few years, we’ve made some headway with a lot of the casino operators. And I’m talking about the, you know, the physical casino operators dotted throughout the state where we’re usually in the casino at least twice a year, for screening days, one screening any day during Problem Gambling Awareness month. And then we do another one in the fall typically. So that’s really created an interesting opportunity for us to start to create some relationships, with the local casinos. And then in our case, a gateway. We’ve got a couple of casinos where we actually then go out on a quarterly basis and work with the staff.

And we train the staff to recognize signs of problem gambling and things like that. So you’ve got people out there on the floor that are aware and have the opportunity to, intervene, if necessary, and at least, at least try to provide that intervention at the point of need. So, it’s little things like that, I think, that are starting to make, small steps towards, solving a larger issue.

But it’s got to start somewhere. And the, the fact that we started with screening is probably the most basic level we could start at, and at least provide that service, but it creates awareness and it creates discussion at the same.

Keith

Time, and it creates an opportunity then to come back and then to come back. And, you know, the the annual training becomes a quarterly train, becomes a monthly training becomes, you know, something for the supervisors and something off the line employees. Yeah. It’s just yeah, it’s it’s creating those opportunities. It’s the old, problem gamblers. What’s wrong with having the conversation in the.

You know, that conversation that leads to the next one leads to the next one. And that’s, I think, again, it it may not happen overnight, but it’s really important. And it’s a credit to you to credit everybody who is willing to sit down and talk. And even when and especially when you don’t always agree or see the world the same way.

Yeah. That’s important.

Shane

Of course, they always are. Always have been. All right. Keith, just on a personal level, what what are 1 or 2 professional moments or accomplishments that you look back over your career and you say, you know what, I’m really proud of that I cherish?

Keith

And the couple that come to mind in 2015, we set up a national Chapter on gaming. So we had a chat, capabilities, the national plan.

And it went live and, actually went live a little bit late at night. And almost instantly the first chapter came in with someone who said, I’m in the parking lot of a casino. I have a therapist. I know I can call the helpline, but I don’t want to do that right now. I’m not going to gamble tonight, but I just needed to talk to someone and they didn’t want to, you know, didn’t necessarily want to be, you know, face to face with the counselor or anything, but chat with them at that moment.

Was this service game needed to keep them from gambling that night? Right. And they chatted a little bit. We could see this real time, you know, it was, you know, pushing information to place that, you know, you know, we could see the chat going on and, you know, and after a little bit. Okay, thanks. I’m good. I’m going home and you know that and that, that was that was powerful.

Not just as a concept. But you know, knowing from one person to that one night they weren’t, going to come on the show. That was incredible. Yeah. Another.

Shane

One, a simple intervention to.

Keith

Simple intervention. Yeah, yeah. You know, and again, they had other resources. They when they were in treatment, they could have called the helpline, but it wasn’t. That’s not what they got. When was it. When they needed that. Yeah. They just wanted to chat access. And so yeah if you didn’t have chat access these days to your helpline, I think, you know, you’re, you’re missing a huge part of that.

That was, that was that was incredible. You mentioned the NFL grant before, but when, when we received the confirmation of the National Council that, awarded that first, NFL grant.

That was a really that was an incredibly special moment. I, I remember, running for the office of our deputy director, Barbara Rollins. And, so did you see the email? Yeah, I think they said yes for a proposal, and she said she pulled it out. We said, yeah, I think it’s a yes. And it is like we just, you know, then we start jumping up and down.

And that was, that was pretty great. But there’s been this incredible moment.

Shane

Yeah. I mean, you know, I actually came up with this question. It was designed because of that. I mean, to to be able to work with one of the biggest brands in the world, right? I mean, there’s no there’s no denying the NFL’s reach, and the number of people that take notice and watch and follow and all of that, I thought when I heard the announcement, I was over the moon.

So, I mean, I get it all. Imagine what it meant to you.

Keith

There are some happy tears, shed. And I mean, it’s especially poignant what we’re talking about today. You know, there was just a gunman that tried to storm their offices. Yeah, I talked to my contacts there, last night. They were all safe. But, you know, the NFL had an employee who was critically injured. And and it’s not for the gunman.

Jumping to the wrong elevator. Could have been a lot worse. So it’s just, you know, leaving aside that the policy and and bringing it all that, it’s just a reminder of how vulnerable we all are. But you know, how connected we are and how, a tragedy like that can touch can touch anybody. But it’s like the tragedy of gambling addiction, you know, it’s not it’s not something anybody seeks out.

You know, and, but it’s it’s devastating to me getting this and so know it’s just. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a.

It’s a challenging Time, I think for, for everybody, when something like this happens and it takes.

Takes people, you know.

Shane

Indeed. Any final thoughts? Keith?

Keith

It’s I, I appreciate the conversation because I think it’s in podcasts like this. It’s in the dialog that we can find answers to a lot of problems. And, you know, problem gambling is too complex, too big to be solved the night. But, you know, the the arc of progress has been good. And I think we’re on a, we’re on a really good arc right now.

You know, and I think the questions that, that remain are the tougher ones. You know, we know how to do public awareness generally. But how do we do use prevention in an age where every phone, you know, it’s essentially a gambling device, right? You know, how do we ride this, this normalization of gambling in a way that that we can help people normalize gambling behavior.

So it’s not harmful. You know, we we’ve kind of reached a little bit more of a social combination with alcohol where, you know, nowadays, I would hope if you were leaving the bar, drunk people would we would take your keys. Yeah. That wasn’t the norm when I was growing up with that. That’s taken and, you know, for four decades.

Shane

Yeah.

Keith

And we’re not there yet, you. Know, you do. You know, alcohol related crashes or not zero I don’t maybe. There could be zero. But we’re much further along that you’re moving on from gambling, so it’s it’s I’m optimistic about the progress. You know, I’m, I’m, hopeful. But, you know, we still there’s still huge gaps, huge barriers. Do you think people with gambling problems still face unique challenges? That we’ll call for. But these are going to can be difficult, if not easy.

Simple kind of magic wand type thing. That’s what makes our work important, but also makes it makes it difficult. Yeah.

Shane

Well, hey, I’ll be in the trenches with you, and, we’ll keep fighting the good fight. I really appreciate really appreciate you coming on the show today. Fantastic conversation. And look forward to us potentially doing this again in the future. Love it. All right.

Keith

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for the pod. I mean, it’s really important. Yeah. I was so glad to chat.

Shane

All right. Thanks, Keith. We love hearing from you. So please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast. You can reach out to us directly via email at Wager Danger at gateway foundation.org. Look for us on Facebook and Twitter at Recover Gateway on LinkedIn at gateway Dash Foundation or through our website at Gateway foundation.org. Wager Danger is funded in whole or in part by the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Behavioral Health and Recovery.

And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you are a family member is struggling with a gambling problem. Call gateway at 8449753663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.