- January 06, 2026
- Gambling
This episode of Wager Danger takes a look back at some interesting moments from all of the very important conversations we have had over the last 12 months.
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BOB NESS
Hello everybody, and welcome to Wager Danger. A podcast about gambling addiction and recovery. I’m Bob Ness, the producer of the podcast, and once again, I’m very pleased to be able to put together an end of year compilation of 2025 guests and highlights.
We covered a lot of ground again this year, which is so necessary given the pervasiveness of legalized gambling and the problems associated with it.
As producer of the podcast, I get to listen to many fascinating conversations with a wide variety of guests, and I’m so happy to have the opportunity to pull together some very interesting clips from this year’s shows.
From Gambling’s effects on children’s brains to the mental health of active military members and veterans. Shane had conversations that were filled with knowledge, data, and real life stories that provide hope and help for those who are suffering with gambling disorder.
Our first guest of 2025 was Doctor Michelle Malkin. She came on the show to discuss how gambling disorder will sometimes lead to committing crimes to support one’s addiction.
MICHELLE MALKIN
one of the big outcomes for people who end up going into severe gambling disorder and continuing down that kind of wormhole is that we know over 50% of those seeking help, at least from traditional ways, will admit to committing at least one gambling motivated crime. And what the way I define gambling motivated crime, although it’s not the only type of gambling motivated crime, which I will explain, is people who have, exhausted their legally available funds and they either are in such debt that they need to somehow figure out a way out of it, or they just need to keep gambling because the urges are too much and yet there’s this faulty
thinking. I kind of call it the gambler’s fallacy, where what happens is with the progression of gambling, we suffer from a number of gambling related harms. Social, economic fact, criminal, you name it, we can suffer from it.
But we think that the only way out of it is to keep gambling, because the next big win is not only going to fix the debt, it’s going to fix the relationships we’ve broken.
It’s going to put the money back that we borrowed things like that.
Well, what happens is a lot of people, especially in their first time when they commit one of these crimes, they consider it borrowing. They’re not expecting to keep the money. They want to put it back. But there are people who are in these trust relationships.
So you’re talking about spouses, parents, employees who have access to funds because of that trust relationship. And they use it for gambling. They’re not using it to buy a big house or Rolex watch. They’re taking money, sometimes tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands. And for many, it actually goes into the millions because of this gambler’s fallacy.
And what I like to say is, it doesn’t matter how much money ended up being taken in one of these acquisitive financial crimes, it literally is about how much money is available to the person who has gone down this path of of gambling disorder.
And so what happens is the individual, their their likelihood for suicide increases substantially once they’ve committed these crimes, because they’re not necessarily people who would ever commit a crime except for when they gamble.
And so they’re there’s so much shame and guilt, and at some point they just run out of avenues. They get caught. But many don’t.
So what I’ve found in my research is, although over 50% admit to committing one of these crimes, only 14% are arrested. And then it’s kind of, a split between whether they end up being found guilty of a felony or misdemeanor.
About 7% will end up being incarcerated for it. But most people who actually commit these crimes are just living with that shame and guilt and never face the criminal consequences or they’re dealing with it, but they’re dealing with it privately. A family member who doesn’t want to press charges, but the person is trying to pay it back, or they’ve broken that relationship for good. So there’s all these different, like, issues that come about with these kinds of crimes.
BOB NESS
Stacy Ladyman grew up with a father who had a severe gambling disorder. She knew that she needed some help so she wouldn’t feel so alone. So on a snowy night in 2016, Stacey walked into a church presentation about gambling addiction and had a chance encounter with one of the attendees that would change her life. The meeting unlocked decades of buried emotion about losing her father to this addiction, and she confronted her feelings by writing.
The result was a book called Shep and the King of Hearts, a fictionalized version about her real life story that she hopes will help others with similar life experiences.
STACY LADYMAN
I felt that I had worked through the pain of what happened in my own life with my, father that was estranged from for for 40 years deep in the gambling addiction. I had worked through that. I’ve had a beautiful life. I have wonderful, two wonderful kids, a wonderful husband.
I could have just kept going and not visited this story. That was part of my past. But you know what, Shane? At the end of the day, when you take your last breath, do you want people to know your pain and suffering so that they can go through it as well and get to the other side? The answer is yes.
You know, even if it caused you a little bit of I mean, Sure. I’m right, I’m sure. A bit of discomfort and on a lot of levels.
Oh, it is, you know, I, I tell the story like you’re sitting at a you know, I recently, not too long ago went over some friends for dinner and, you know, the couples are sitting around talking and something comes up about their background, like their father did this or their mother did that, and, you know, it just it still hit you in the middle of the heart.
Well, I didn’t have a dad around, you know that. That’s my. But you’re sitting there in your, you know, former or your, your life and they don’t see that pain because they don’t even it’s long ago. So I think there’s many of us that walk around like that. You know, we have this, this pain in our backgrounds, but we don’t often show it.
So, you know it when you say, is it cathartic? I guess it is. I think it’s something that actually God wanted me to do to bring this story out, to show others that there is a way to the pain and that let’s not numb ourself with just all the trappings of the world, of all the gambling and everything that can go on.
Let’s get down to the heart of of who we really are. And you know what an abundant life we can have if we’re there for each other. So that’s what I’m trying to do with this story.
BOB NESS
March is problem Gambling Awareness Month, and this year we had a panel discussion to talk about the statewide collaborative efforts in Illinois to combat problem gambling. The theme for 2025 was Seeking Understanding, which included educational and training initiatives as well as community support.
In this clip, we hear from Emma Bowen from Chestnut Health Systems. She tells us about the unintended consequences of having slot machines and video poker games brought in to a non gambling establishment.
EMMA BOWEN
I’ve spoken to a lot of business owners specifically of those locations, because usually that’s who I ask for. Because if you’re bringing resources, you need to talk to the owner or a manager. So I do speak to a lot of those people, and I’m never there to probe any information out of them, but they do usually when exchanging resources, they share with me their experience and their experiences definitely range the gamut.
A lot of them tell me that it’s been financially beneficial, that, you know, maybe has saved their business or this thing or that thing that’s positive. But for every positive thing, I’ve got a negative thing or maybe even to, similar to, you know, I didn’t I didn’t realize what was going to happen when I introduced this.
And it’s changed the business, and it’s caused a lot of trouble that I didn’t see coming. And bringing pain here that I didn’t expect. One person specifically told me that she didn’t expect that whenever she brought it in, that she would have people waiting at the door with their small children at opening, waiting to get to the bench and that their toddler would sit on the bench all day.
So I think that there’s really kind of positives and negatives that I’m hearing from those business owners, and just maybe that they didn’t have the information that they needed when they got into this to know what it would look like. And they certainly don’t have the support to make it something that’s safe or beneficial to the customers. And in the long run, ultimately, the business and the business owners, because, like I said, this isn’t what they were looking for when they introduced slot gambling into their business.
They were hoping to boost profits, probably during Covid. And ultimately negative things came from that, that they don’t have the means to necessarily or the support to deal with now.
BOB NESS
At least once a year, we’d like to get out of the studio and into the field, and this year was no exception. Well, I’ll let Shane explain the event to you.
SHANE COOK
This time we headed out to the problem gambling and harm Reduction resource Fair on the West side of Chicago hosted by Health Care Alternative Systems or Haase, and co-sponsored by Gateway Foundation.
This event is part of Problem Gambling Awareness Month, and the space was filled with energy and real conversations about gambling addiction and the power of recovery.
This year’s theme is seeking understanding. And that’s exactly what we’re doing.
HAAS
Together, we are breaking the silence, reducing stigma and ensuring that no one has to face this struggle alone.
At HAAS, we see firsthand the toll that gambling addiction can take on financial security, mental health relationships, and the overall well-being of a person. Let’s replace judgment with compassion. Let’s replace stigma with solutions. Let’s replace isolation with support.
SHANE COOK
All around the rooms, we see people sharing stories, connecting with resources, and having those tough but necessary conversations about Gambling’s impact on their lives.
We had brief conversations with several participants, including keynote speaker Cassandra Belton.
CASSANDRA BELTON
I never really met other black women that were gamblers. Even when I went gambling, I didn’t make a friend. And I tell you, I used to be on three and four machines I really wanted to create a space for black women.
SHANE COOK
We also spoke with Mimi and Jennifer from the Midwest Asian Health Association about gambling issues in the Asian community.
MIMI
It’s been very difficult to kind of talk to people about gambling just because gambling isn’t really seen as a big issue,
SHANE COOK
Kimberly about starting her gambling recovery after years of substance abuse.
KIMBERLY
I think that me sharing with some people now, have some accountability,
SHANE COOK
Colby Lofton on his youth advocacy work.
COLBY LOFTON
The bombardment, that’s the biggest problem. So as an 11 year old, I would have to, guess who’s going to win those games. And then the reward would be virtual currency. Right.
SHANE COOK
And event organizer Tiffany Webb for her takeaways from the gathering,
TIFFANY WEBB
What does that look like when individuals are trying to get, support? we have to identify them. And if we don’t know where to look, we’re not helping.
SHANE COOK
But we begin with Jimmy, who has been a guest on the show before, and he updated us on his recovery journey, as well as his new endeavor to support the community.
Like. You started your own podcast. Tell us about that. How did you get there?
JIMMY
It’s been really awesome, actually. 2021, me and, another, gamblers Anonymous member who I happened to, sponsor at the time. We’re talking about how there really isn’t anything out there for gambling recovery. You see, a lot of podcasts on the other end of it, how to make Money. But not really the dark stories, right?
BOB NESS
You’re going to have to go listen to the full episode to hear the rest of the event’s storytellers.
in May. We were very happy to be joined for the second time by Doctor Joshua Grubbs to talk more about the psychology behind sports gambling.
He’s always a wealth of knowledge, and on this episode, we went into his research about drinking while gambling.
DR JOSHUA GRUBBS
And the fact that gamblers engage in binge drinking at 4 to 5 times the rate of non sports gamblers. Gamblers always have drink a little bit more than the general public, which is not surprising. This is kind of a finding we know, from all sorts of mental health research, that the vices go together, if you will. Right. So the types of behaviors that have that potential and they tend to go together. And there’s lots of people that recreationally drink without problems. Lots of people that recreational gamble without problems. Some do them both at the same time without problems. But the sports gambler link is is absurdly high. Like, we’re seeing the, you know, rates of binge drinking that are 4 to 5 times as frequent.
We’re seeing over time the, the trajectories of alcohol problems, sports gambling frequency are really closely related to each other. So that over the two year study,
if you increased your sports gambling, it was very likely that you started developing more problems with alcohol along that time. Not everyone, but, the likelihood went way up because of it. We’re seeing we have another paper we just wrapped up showing that, you know, sports gamblers are reporting, you know, drinking and gambling simultaneously at 3 to 4 times the rates of non-sports gamblers.
Right. It just in. So a lot of, you know, I’ve talked about this in other settings before and people are like, oh, so sports gambling is making people drink. And I’m like, I don’t think it to that. I think it’s when you think about what do you do when you watch sports in most countries? But certainly in the US, like drinking is part of sports culture, right?
You watch sports at a sports bar, you watch sports at a friend’s house, at a barbecue, at a tailgate, heaving at the stadium. Alcohol is part of sports culture.
And we know from past research and this is, I mean, incredibly obvious, right? Sports gamblers watch more sports. So what do you do when you watch sports? Well, for a lot of people, they drink. A lot of people they drink the whole time they’re watching sports. So it’s not that sports gamblers are just being like, yes, I’m going to get completely blasted every single night because that’s just who I am.
No, it’s why I’m sitting down to watch how these games play out, because I have money on all of them. And what am I going to do while I’m watching? Well, I’m going to have a couple of beers, but you do that every day, and that couple beers turns into 4 or 5 beers. You’re talking 30, 40 drinks a week.
And from an addiction research perspective, we know, you know, if you’re averaging 30 or 40 drinks a week, that’s that’s a problem. Even if you’re not having DUIs, even if you don’t feel like you’re getting drunk that much alcohol in a week consistently has a lot of health impacts. And so those are the types of things that we’re really focusing on now, is we do think that there’s a potential that sports gambling at a societal level might be raising, alcohol related problems just because of the increase in drinking while engaging in the behavior.
BOB NESS
Our next guest was Michael Goldman, who has spent 40 years working with people in recovery. He and Shane talked a lot in this episode about the connection between domestic violence and gambling disorder.
However, in this clip, Michael told us about something a lot of people don’t know about. It’s called transfer addiction.
MICHAEL GOLDMAN
Transfer addiction means that nearly 70% of people who quit drugs or alcohol develop a new addiction within one year.
So transfer addiction is if a person, let’s say, has a substance abuse disorder, then there is a very high percentage of people that, once they get sober, will transfer to something else. So they may transfer from substance abuse to sex. They may transfer from substance abuse to gambling. And the groups that I ran, it was not uncommon for me to have a person who was in full recovery for one and then get into recovery for a second or even a third.
And so by planting those seeds, we could get people kind of aware of it. And so my groups, even though they weren’t bringing it up, I was and they became very cognizant of saying, you know what? Maybe I shouldn’t be going into a casino, not just because they serve alcohol, but because I’m a high risk. And there has been a ton of studies to show, one of my favorite ones is, they did, study for people who had eating disorders. And they found that within the 12 month time, over 70% of them developed a brand new addiction that they had never, experienced before.
And the reason behind it is simply because of the neurology of how dopamine gets hijacked. When you introduce any type of addiction. And if you take away that dopamine, disruption, a lot of people will seek out other things that will replace.
BOB NESS
As a listener of our show, chances are you’ve heard many guests talk about the vulnerability of youths and problem gambling.
Doctor Crystal Collier came on to talk with Shane about how we need to protect children’s brain development by keeping them away from gambling,
Since they’re so prone to harm through risky behavior, as Shane called it. They’re easy targets.
DR CRYSTAL COLLIER
The first thing is that there are more problem teen gamblers than adults. We’re talking a much greater proportion of the population of teens that have problem gambling than if we just assess adults. And the main reason for that is that their frontal lobe is still growing and developing and not completely developed until the age of 25. So if you think about an average 18 year old, they’ve got about 75 to 80% of their prefrontal cortex.
And the skills that you need to be able to accurately perceive risk are those hypothetical abstract reasoning skills. So prior to that, kids think very concretely. And that shows up in oh my God, I’m going to win this. That’s easy. But I think also making sure that you have conversations with kids about what a social gambling activity is versus a problem gambling activity.
So. Right. Making sure that kids know. Yeah. Buying a lottery ticket once in a while. Like asking kids are you willing to lose $2? Okay, if you’re willing to lose $2, let’s talk about the odds. What are the odds of you winning this lottery? Okay, those are really astronomical. But if you’re willing to lose this, okay, that would be a social gambling.
You know, playing an occasional bet on a hole on a golf course. Like, if you’re willing to lose that, that would be a social gambling. But having problem gambling, we need to teach kids what problem gambling is. If you cannot pay a bill because of your problem, gambler. Yes, we have an issue, right? If you’re borrowing money, if you’re chasing the, losses, trying to make up for that, if you’re sweating, if you’re not sleeping, if we need to teach kids these definitions earlier.
Right. Earlier than we thought, Shane. Because now online gambling is so prolific. And you also have, like the quasi legal sites that they really are gambling, but because they use words like, oh yeah, this is no purchase necessary. And, and you don’t actually buy real money, you buy sweepstakes money that turns into realm, like it’s the same thing.
We need to teach kids how they try to trick you.
BOB NESS
Next on the show was Keith White who recently finished a 27 year run as the executive director of National Council on Problem Gambling. After he left NCPG, he started his own problem gambling consulting firm called Safer Gambling Strategies, and he came on the show to talk to Shane about how we need more awareness about how gambling has become a public health crisis, and we really need to talk about it.
KEITH WHYTE
How can you maximize the benefit from legalized gambling and at the same time minimize the harm? And that that’s that’s a it’s a dynamic conversation. It’s an emerging conversation. It’s a conversation where there’s not necessarily any right answers because that’s going to change. And Now, finally, I think Americans have realized that gambling is a national issue. And yes, it’s a state by state and there’s some nuances. But really, this is something that is widespread.
It’s there’s widespread participation. It’s widely available to all Americans, whether you live in a state that has a particular, you know, form of legalized gambling or not. It’s accessible, it’s available, and it’s advertised.
What the leap we haven’t made yet in the leap that I’ve been working on in some cases for decades, is to also help Americans understand that problem gambling is a national public health issue.
You know, so so we’re at that point where, you know, people see gambling advertisements, you know, they’re openly talking about their sports bets. You know, they, you know, the lotteries everywhere. You know, participation is roughly around 75 to 80% of Americans is gambling at least once in the past year. You know, that’s a that’s an all time high, but that it hasn’t yet translated into understanding that.
Of course, problem gambling is also a national public health issue, that of course, there’s millions of people with gambling problems that they face enormous shame and stigma and that there are all sorts of structural barriers, you know, that their people’s gambling problems are treated in the law, you know, by insurance companies and, you know, by state governments much differently than people who have other, addictions, particularly substance abuse.
BOB NESS
Jean-Pierre Miccuci came out on the show to discuss his recovery journey through what he calls a hidden addiction. When you are addicted to gambling, you can hide it from friends, family, spouses even if you’re in way over your head. He’s very cognizant that there needs to be more awareness and help for people out there suffering from problem gambling, And he’s doing everything he can to create communications tools to get in front of people who desperately need the help to confront their gambling problems and get started on their own recovery journey.
JON PIERRE MICUCCI
The hidden addiction. It is totally easy to hide and so I think if we’re saying we only actually are aware, sometimes the studies are like we’re only aware of one out of 20 gamblers that are doing it. can we do to just, help, like help gamblers, you know? And so even jumping in, I can jump me to the first thing that I’m, I’m right now working on, is something I’ve been calling, trips.
Okay. And some of this is, you know, some of where I approach these things is I kind of try to think about it. Soup to nuts in terms of even the, the, the branding effort that’s going to go out there because any good treatment program, it’s only as good as how well it’s marketed or reaches the consumer. Right. And, and this is a particularly hard consumer because, we love hiding.
So even if there’s like the perfect treatment program out there, how are we going to get them to kind of, bite the apple and say, come and try knowing that they are trying, you know, they’re trying. The hidden recovery know, they’re white knuckling it.
They’re trying to keep it from their wife still, they’re trying to just, like, figure out how to control, mainly stop gambling, but even try to control it without letting anyone know. Not having a therapist, not going to a GA meeting, not telling their wife, not telling their parent, not telling a friend they are hit it. They’re keeping it hidden and taking it to the grave.
They’re figuring out how to how to deal with the losses. And in in the substance use and alcohol world, they actually refer to this, I’ve heard as natural recovery.
And it is, it is a very appetizing option because again, of the, the shame around, the money losses in the activity and the, the propensity and ability that we have to hide it, it’s like it’s right there for the taking, you know, you’re like, oh my God, if I can hide the addiction, I can probably hide the recovery.
BOB NESS
Problem gambling in the military is another topic that has come up on multiple episodes.
Shane Kraus came on the show to shed some more light on how both active duty members and veterans are vulnerable to problem gambling, and how many of them are introduced to slot machines on U.S. bases located on foreign soil.
SHANE KRAUS
You know, when you have these young individuals who are deployed and we know that marriages fall apart, relationships fall apart early in your military service sometimes, and you’re overseas and overseas, they have bases on slot machines. It’s legal and and it’s part of recreational and entertainment. And if you kind of get into habits of spending money on slot machines and drinking and kind of you’re away from your family under stress, you may not have a gambling disorder, you know, when you’re 21, 21, 22, but those are habits that maybe not so great to make.
And as you come out later in your life and you form, you learn to gamble for stress or to avoid stress, or to cope with stress or trauma or whatever things those factors eventually will develop into a gambling disorder.
Right? So so our issue, my my big issue with the military bases is, is that they have the slot machines, but there’s no knowledge, there’s no education.
I mean, they bring in about $100 million in revenue or profit, not in revenue.
And it’s a small group of people. We’re not talking about millions of people overseas. You know, our military’s what, 2 million. And I’m not sure how many are deployed, but it’s not that big. But that’s a lot of money. 100 million. That’s the profits. Not not not all the handle. Great. I think they handled like 500 million. So it’s a lot of money.
And again some people they spend their money differently. I’m not here to judge that. But if you don’t provide knowledge warning signs say hey here’s what you need to look for. If you’re gambling, if you start seeing yourself gambling more than you want to, you’re losing money. You’re chasing your law is, hey, let’s stop and slow down. But if you don’t provide anything to this branch, you don’t have any trainings, you have no debriefings, you have no materials anywhere on the base or in the slot machine parlors.
Then I think that’s a problem. And that’s currently what we seen. And and we did a qualitative study. And, it’s been published. It came out a couple months ago. And it’s also, I think, free and publicly available so people can find it. And we interviewed 28 veterans, in service members. So for four, I think four were active duty.
And they talk about being on the bases. They talk about these early relationships with gambling when they’re, you know, in the military and how that kind of stuck with them. So so I think there’s something there. Does it mean all those slot machines are getting people addicted to gambling? Absolutely not. But I think we have a risk there that we have to talk about. And how do we educate young people and say, hey, you know, just like we tell you, when you go out and, you know, on your liberty and you have a pass, don’t drink too much. Be smart. You’re in a foreign country. Make good choices. Well, it also means just because you’re on the military base doesn’t mean you should also drink too much, gamble too much.
BOB NESS
Shane’s most recent conversation was with Jeremy Dixon and Guy Caprio from Loyola University in Chicago. They talked about how college athletes are tempted to place bets on college games, as well as individual prop bets, and, conversely, how these same athletes manage interactions with fans who have placed wagers on their teams and performances.
There’s a lot coming at these athletes of late, and in this clip, Jeremy and Guy talk about how these student athletes need to manage the money and pressures that are coming at them through the NCAA and NIL.
JEREMY DIXON
You have NIL, which is just regular name, image, likeness, which is more of like student athletes generating contracts with third party organizations on their own and getting paid for showing up to events, signing off on things. I think all in all, I think we have a generation of athletes at the moment that are experiencing new money for the first time, especially when you think about how many first generation student athletes are out there that don’t necessarily have access to money.
And I think the other part, too, I think this is more of a society thing rather than like an athlete thing is like we have a really low awareness of financial literacy in our country right now where people don’t understand necessarily, like debt to income ratio. They don’t necessarily understand taxes and how to how to take care of that.
So now we have to worry about educating our student athletes to make sure they understand how to take care of everyday things with read, share and and I owe money. But now we have to worry about them going out here and using that money to wager and earn some type of income from their or lose money and not necessarily know what it looks like to go out and do $1,000 bet and then be like, oh, well, I got $10,000 left in my account.
Not realizing that they spent $1,000 here, $3,000 there, and that thousand dollars bet. You’re going to want to continue to reciprocate. And I’m pretty sure I can speak more to that. Once you start building those habits, we’ll start getting access to things you don’t necessarily have before, like, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of our student athletes grow up with the mindset, you fake it til you make it, and now they feel like they’ve got a little extra money in their pocket.
So they essentially made it. But now they’re trying to live up to that lifestyle in which they essentially put, and they don’t understand the dangers that could come with that.
GUY CAPRIO
Once you feel that rush of that thousand dollar bet, you’re not going to go back to 50. It’s just that it’s it’s just not the same. And I think it becomes a slippery slope from there. And then again, I’m not an expert in the mind of an athlete. I know it’s much for your area, Jeremy, but I think, you know, there’s always this thought of, I’m going to win or I’m good at this, or I’m an expert in this game, so I’m going to win over, over time. And we all know it doesn’t. It doesn’t work that way.
BOB NESS
Well, it’s been another incredible year for wager danger. Shane has gone to conferences, sporting events and many other locations to create awareness about problem gambling, the harm it can cause, and the help that is available.
We will continue reaching out to other professionals in his orbit and invite them on the show to share their knowledge, wisdom and experience.
All of us at Wager Danger wish you a happy and healthy 2026.
And remember that we love hearing from you. So please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast.
You can reach out to us directly via email at wager Danger at Gateway Foundation dot org. Look for us on Facebook and Twitter at Recovery Gateway and LinkedIn at gateway Dash Foundation, or through our website at Gateway foundation.org.
Wager danger is supported through funding, in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Abuse Prevention and Recovery.
And remember, recovery is a life long process. If you or a family member are struggling with a gambling problem, call Gateway at (844) 975-3663 and speak to one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.
