- April 16, 2026
- Gambling
As an amateur female boxer, Elizabeth was on a trajectory toward Olympic and professional status in her sport. A career-ending injury sent her on a search for something to replace the adrenaline jolt she missed from boxing. In this episode we learn how poker became her new obsession and how she eventually recognized it was an unsustainable pursuit.
Contact Elizabeth: ethielen@nicasa.org
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ELIZABETH THIELEN
I look back and I realize that a lot of the things that made me a good athlete made me a bad gambler.
SHANE COOK
Hey, welcome to another episode of Wager Danger. I’m your host, Shane Cook, gambling disorder program director at Gateway Foundation. Returning to the studios for the third time, officially, that makes her number one on the guest list. It’s Elizabeth Thielen from NICASA.
On her previous visits, Elizabeth has told her stories about how NICASA helps individuals with gambling disorder. But she’s here today to talk about her personal story.
She was a Golden Gloves boxer with dreams of going to the Olympics, when a career ending injury sent her in a different direction to the poker table.
Now she’s ready to share her story of gambling disorder, recovery, and how she’s paying it forward.
Elizabeth, it’s great to have you here. I think the last time and I might add to I’m sorry, I, I, I believe you may have had a cameo appearance at one point too, at a, at an event that we were doing a live recording on.
So, that this may make number four.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Right. And, you know, anybody who knows me knows I’m super competitive. So to be the most of anything makes me happy. So, so glad to be on the most, and appreciate the show.
SHANE COOK
Well that’s right. That’s why I wanted to mention it, because I knew you would appreciate that. And, I I’m really I really happy that we had some time to join us here on the program today and, talk about a few things. I know recently you’ve had the opportunity to go out and speak to other podcasters that are out there that are, sharing stories of recovery, in this space around problem gambling.
And,I thought it would be an excellent opportunity for us to come back together and, and explore some things that that maybe you’ve had some conversations that you’ve had. Not necessarily, have a recap of all of those things, but at least in general, talk about them.
So, You’ve already mentioned you’re highly competitive, and and we know that about you, but, where did that start? You were, if I recall, and first time listeners may not know this, but you were a competitive amateur boxer. And you were working your way up, to the Olympics, actually, and boxing in the Olympics.
And tell us a little bit about your story, your history, with boxing and how that all plays into the gambling as well.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Sure. Yeah. The, you know, Olympics or turning pro was the goal. That was where I was trying to head. And something interrupted that that kind of relates to our discussion. But to take you further back, I, I had, come from a family that was affected by alcoholism and divorce, and I lost a parent to alcoholism. And, my mom remarried, and my stepdad, really loved boxing.
He used to train boxers. And so as a kid, you know, we had a heavy bag in the basement. And, you know, I’m hitting the pads, and my sister and I are arguing, and he’s having us settle it, you know, with gloves on and just watching the old fights and watching Tuesday night fights together on, I think, on USA boxing.
And it was just really in my blood. And when I was really looking for something very competitive to do, I started out in martial arts and the kind of stop action of that just felt like not satisfying and so it just felt natural to turn to amateur boxing and found a great gym where they had never trained a female before.
And the coach said, okay, let’s give it a try. And I was in college at the time. So it was it was quite a juggling act, you know, to, balance academics, which I was very, driven academically and boxing, which was very is, you know, it’s a very, physical sport, lots of training and, and, you know, boxing is not seasonal.
Of course, you’re looking for I was I fought in the Golden Gloves a number of years. And, you know, when the Golden Gloves were coming up. But you as a female, back in that in that time, there weren’t a lot of us. I was, I’ll give you my. I fought under the name Liz McGonigle, which was my name, until I got married.
And, it was hard to find bouts. It was hard to find other women that were training and that would that we could line up with. And so, it had to be on at all times. So the training was very intensive and and just consistent and no breaks and sometimes taking fights that were maybe, mismatches because I was very small.
I was, 112 pounds was in my weight division, but probably I weighed in at 108 at any given time. And, believe it or not, I was good. I didn’t, you know, I only trained with men, so I didn’t even know until I got into that first match. What was it like to be in the ring with a woman?
And I won by knockout and broke my opponent’s nose. And that kind of brought out something in me, like a ferocity. I ended up having an 80% knockout rate. I was a southpaw, so a straight my straight left was my knockout punch. And, okay, during during this time, I, I, you know, got I’m, I’m turned 21 during this year my boxing career was about over five years long.
And when I turned 21, it became natural for my family. That was very much into gambling. To go to the casino together. No. Gambling had been part of my childhood. Going to the track with my parents and helping them pick the courses, go into the bingo hall, you know, playing cards and dice for money. So it was kind of part of what we did.
SHANE COOK
So, so what? You’re, just a quick question with the boxing, what venues did boxing take place? Where were you in casino venues or where where it more gym venues? You know, where where did that take place?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yeah. So like local auditoriums or in the ring up and all of that. And however, as we all know, what’s the fight capital of the world, Las Vegas, Nevada. All right. So, as I turned 21 in for, for where I lived in Pennsylvania. So I trained and fought out of Erie, Pennsylvania. The closest casino to us was actually in, Canada.
So we would either, you know, go to Canada, or we would be going to Las Vegas together as a family and see the fights. So I got to see some of the big, you know, Holyfield, Lewis one and two and Julio Cesar Chavez and, Oscar De La Hoya and Roy Jones Jr, like I, you know, would spend a good amount of time in the fight capital of the world.
And so like, boxing and gambling kind of was all wrapped up together like the action in Las Vegas. It was just all wrapped up together and, I had some vulnerabilities that I didn’t know of, you know, have being the child of somebody with alcoholism, I kind of had a predisposition that I didn’t know that I had. So there were some maybe early indicators that maybe my relationship to gambling wasn’t all that healthy.
But at the time, I’m boxing and I’m in school and, I had a career ending injury. So you mentioned, like, the Olympics or turning pro, women’s boxing was not in the Olympics at the time when I was at the height when I was a state champion and the national champion. And so that was the goal, you know?
Right. Okay. Remain amateur status until we are allowed in the Olympics and hold hope for that, though I had an offer to turn pro and so that was kind of also, on the table as a, as an option. And then I had a very serious injury that took me out of the game very abruptly and very, very it was very distressing and disturbing to go from this ongoing action and adrenaline and purpose and sense of elevation, to nothing and lose my identity and and lose all that ongoing adrenaline.
And I replaced that at the poker table. And so I ended.
SHANE COOK
Up so, so you you needed something to channel all this energy that you had put into developing a boxing career, and you needed something to give you the same return on your, on your time investment, right?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yeah. Which, yeah.
SHANE COOK
Actually became a financial investment too. Yeah. But, you know, it’s understandable if you’re if you’re an athlete participating extremely high level, then you need something that’s going to return and give you that same sense of accomplishment and feeling and so on and so forth. Right.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
And that, that action. And so in this field, we talk about two types of gamblers the escape gambler and the action gambler. And the big distinction is that we feel like the distinction is one person’s escaping and the other person is trying to feel important. In my experience and just my belief overall is we’re all an escape gamblers.
But but to me, the big distinction is do you get like, an adrenaline powerful, rush when gambling or do you get kind of zoned out, sedated, soothed kind of experience? And so I would say I escaped into this, very energized rush that I got from playing at the poker table and trying to make risky bets and just this intensity of experience that I missed.
And I think all athletes, when you’re on the bench, when you have an injury, when you’re off season or anything like that, it’s a very, very high risk time. And I didn’t know about that. In general, I don’t think we do a great job at all of supporting athletes who are transitioning out of sport, whether it’s abrupt or whether it’s slow.
And for me, I replaced it in this very, very unhealthy way that ended up hurting me. And a lot of the characteristics that I had as a highly competitive athlete, like one just for competitiveness, like the go, go, go, like I can beat this, like, and if you’re losing, like just swing for the fences, right? No. Like if you’re losing gambling you need to stop.
And then if you’re winning, you know, also stop right. Walk away and count your money and then be happy. But know like a competitive athlete is always striving for that bigger win. And so it makes it harder for you to disengage than it might be for somebody else who could be satisfied with that win, you know? And so a lot of the characteristics and this is my kind of my theme when I’m talking to athletes is that I look back and I realized that a lot of the things that made me a good athlete made me a bad gambler.
And so.
SHANE COOK
Such as?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Such as the inability to accept wins, like always trying to win more, the inability to accept losses. So like it is, it is advantageous as an athlete to run the tapes and figure out what you’ve done wrong and correct it and come back and try to, you know, correct a loss. Right. That’s that makes sense. But if you’re losing gambling, there is no like, oh, I need a better strategy or, you know, just keep coming back.
We know chasing losses is actually indicative of disordered gambling. So walking away and stepping back when you’re losing and just being like, well, that’s to be expected is what we really should do. But it doesn’t come natural to an athlete. You know, we think we’re going to overcome and figure it out and do it different. Or do it better.
And that double down. Right. And the other is just the adrenaline seeking, you know, and, and trying to have this, this action, the compartmentalization I mentioned, I mentioned that a lot. You know, we compartmentalize pain. Athletes have worries like anybody else. They have stress like anybody else. They might have injuries, and they pack it away very tightly because they have to perform.
And we don’t do the best job of unpacking those things and addressing them. And so when somebody is gambling in a harmful way, like I was and like many athletes might end up doing, we kind of pack it away and put it aside and we don’t attend to it and recognize like, hey, this is kind of maybe not going great.
We pack it up, which means it might end up going on, very much, longer.
you know, after that career ending injury, my gambling escalated, because I wasn’t training six hours, six days a week, right. I had a lot more time on my hands.
I also ended up experiencing a significant loss in that my stepfather passed away unexpectedly and at a very young age, and it was it was devastating. And then most of my family, like, move back east where we’re from. And then I was unsure, kind of not as didn’t have as much accountability. So I had this gambling issue that was developing and it’s career ending injury and this very, emotional loss.
And then I had less kind of monitoring or accountability, and it was kind of the perfect storm. And only through, a lot of just, you know, my life changing, becoming a wife and a mother, stepmother. It doesn’t it’s not conducive to sitting at the poker table six, seven hours at a time. And so there started to be conflict in, in my self as a gambler.
And then my role, roles, life roles. And the insight came when I had my husband actually start to notice, like, hey, like this, how often are you actually gambling or how much you actually gamble? And for some reason, that kind of scrutiny allowed me to break through all the compartmentalization that I had done internally and examine and go, oh my gosh, and actually recognize it for what it was.
And then, in, in my case, shut it down, not like, you know, start getting help or anything like that. Just shut it down and, and then it was very, very fortuitous for me that after that, not too long after that, to be honest, that it my job here at NICASA gambling got folded into my role the gambling program and it hadn’t been and so it gave me the opportunity to kind of, indirectly learn about myself and understand what had happened with me while I was seeking to understand this so I can help clients.
And so it became this kind of parallel process where I was breaking through that tightly guarded defense and starting to apply some of what I was learning to myself to understand why this could happen to me, how this happens, and how people heal from it.
And I just think it’s a really interesting thing to talk about that we’re not robots, we’re people, and we make ourselves vulnerable, by sharing sometimes things we said and did that are not, you know, things that we would be proud of or excited about except we share them. There’s a song, like a rap song that I like, and it says something like, I share my scars.
Something about my scars. And I’m sharing, so you won’t be wearing them. And I just thought that was really cool. And it is a very similar, you know, thought pattern for me of sharing some things. That can be shared painful because that pain can be prevented. And other people, if they know some of the stuff that we didn’t know going in.
SHANE COOK
Right, right. Well, that’s that’s interesting that, that you’ve had that opportunity to have those discussions. And I get the sense that you have a very. You’re very, interested in sharing that story in the hopes and even your reference to wearing the scars so you don’t have to.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Write your reference.
SHANE COOK
Yeah, that’s an opportunity to do that.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
So yeah, I don’t.
SHANE COOK
I want to give you the opportunity to share some of the things that maybe you wish you would have shared on some of the other podcasts. Right. Didn’t have a chance to.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yeah. And so it is a it was a process of deciding to not actively hide my own experiences. So it kind of it started with, having the experiences and not talking about them, hiding them to them, emerging. It was really because I do love public awareness, I love education, I do education with professionals and law enforcement and community and all of that.
And I would start utilizing examples from my own experiences. For example, like one feature of disordered gambling is an increased tolerance, and so needing to increase your bets to get the same level of excitement. And I would talk about like, imagine a card player who starts out playing $10 a hand, but then that’s not enough for them, and they’re playing $25 a hand, then $50 a hand, and then they start playing blind and trying to bet on hands that they don’t even open because it feels riskier and more exciting.
This was my own example, but I would disguise it as maybe something that I had heard, you know, a client had shared, or I had just heard from a colleague. And so some of my own experiences would come out in my public awareness and education stuff, but it would be disguised. Over time, it got more and more.
You know, we talk about in this field of dissonance, you know, cognitive dissonance when you start having this internal conflict and something just doesn’t feel right. And that’s when change can really happen, when you have that dissonance. And it was starting to feel more and more uncomfortable for me to actively hide. It started to feel that I was being deceptive.
Now I do want to distinguish. Everybody has the right to anonymity. So in no way am I saying that by not publicly sharing your own experiences in some way, you’re being deceptive. I was feeling this discomfort that was growing, and really felt like I didn’t deserve to have, like, a recovery process because I stopped gambling when I, when I had this epiphany that we won’t go into.
But when I have this epiphany of like, oh my gosh, you are you you’re actually doing the very thing you’ve sought your whole life to avoid, which was addiction. It’s just in this unrecognizable form that you didn’t notice, you didn’t see coming. I shut it down, I stopped doing it, and I didn’t. I, like, packed it away and very kind of privately and shamefully packed it away and didn’t do it again.
So a part of me felt like, well, you’re done. Like you’re not doing anymore. So it’s not like you need meetings or you need to heal or anything like that’s for other people. That’s for other people like your clients and you know, and so but I started to realize that not gambling is very different than recovering, and that it was hurting me to not allow myself opportunities that I would encourage in anybody else.
You know, with other people, you know, the I you know, the opposite of addiction is isolation. We say a lot. And I was very isolated in my experiences. The other sure.
SHANE COOK
I yeah, I don’t want to take you too far off right. This but I think this is very interesting is a phenomenon that I think is very, common with people, is how I, how do you how do you wrestle with that? I mean, how did you wrestle with it?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Right? It was weird. Well, it kind of the way I am. So I tend to be this very kind of all or nothing person. So I, I when I decided I need to not conceal this in this way, I was like, let’s go on the all in the Addicted Gamblers podcast. And just like where, you know, even so, I was so early on in my own understanding of my own experiences and history.
So I had to package those and compartmentalize those so tightly that I had barely just started examining them. So there was still a lot of guarded ness and defensiveness, and I would say even minimization of kind of the seriousness of what I had experienced at that point. So it’s an interesting thing to like our own understanding of our of our history and our past can evolve over time.
And that’s okay. This is what I would say to people. It’s okay. We’re we’re we can be very guarded and defended. And they say the the analogy, of.
SHANE COOK
Course, that’s what makes us human.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yes, that makes us human. And there’s the analogy of peeling the onion, you know, so, so things are going to emerge and you’re going to realize, you know, like, okay, I kind of said, oh, it wasn’t that bad because for a good portion of it, it was episodic. And I even remember using that word episodic, you know? So I was like, totally fine.
And then I was and then I was fine and then I wasn’t. And it’s like, that doesn’t diminish the harm that I experienced and that I caused myself. And, so it’s just a it was an interesting process. And one of the reasons that it did feel important to me, and it feels important to me now to even mention it, like on your podcast, is we’re all people and people in the helping professions, whether it’s therapists, doctors, even law enforcement and attorneys and just people who help other people for a living.
Sometimes we get this very unrealistic notion that we should not have these human experiences that everybody else has. And, and you, when you talk about being in the addictions professions and having actually actively experiencing addictive behaviors yourself, can you imagine the amount of shame and guarded ness and defensiveness that that people will experience what I experienced? And so, you know, do we feel safe to seek help?
Do we feel safe to enter the rooms? And I would say, me tightening it down and hiding it the way I did started to make me realize in, am I perpetuating that pain that I experience a feeling like, no, you can’t talk about this. Don’t tell anybody about this. Am I perpetuating that for other people in the helping professions who might be suffering silently by my own silence?
And so it did become important to me to start sharing because we’re all human, you know, we so many of us have this, this thinking and I had it. I should have known better. I’ve had clients who are long term recovery from substance use and gambling, you know, became an issue for them. And when they finally reach out for help, they beat themselves up.
I should have known. But if anybody I should have known better on long term recovery from alcohol and long term recovery from crack cocaine addiction, why didn’t I see this coming? And I did the same thing as a child of somebody with alcoholism who’s very guarded, defended against other forms of addiction, or so I thought. And I’ve said that a lot.
I had this thinking once I realized what I was doing. Like me, of all people, how could I let this happen? I help people during the day. I work with people with alcoholism and cocaine addiction and opioid addiction and, and here I am, you know, you know, shutting down the casino, being told to leave when they close for that two hour window, which they don’t anymore.
But yeah, they used to back in my day, you know, and so I.
SHANE COOK
It is, is that back during the time when they had to leave the dock.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
To disembark. Right. They had to disembark or something like that. And, and so I think it’s like that now, then they would just like lift the little things up and, and put them back down. But, but yeah. And so I,
I find it’s important to try to share the message that there is no type of person who might not experience gambling related harm, especially when if we don’t even think about we all know about alcoholism.
Like children know that alcohol can become addictive, right? Children know that drugs can become addictive, and yet people still experience addiction. So knowing is not enough. But imagine when you don’t even know because nobody’s talking about gambling openly in the risks involved. So the fact that so many of us fall into this without knowing we cannot be beating ourselves up and say, we should have known better.
How should we know better? You know, people know better about alcohol and drugs and still experience addiction, but people are not talking about this the way that they do.
SHANE COOK
Yeah, that’s, a great point. And I think and you probably yeah that you know, to some extent you’re probably aware I know you’re aware of this, but we just don’t think or people just don’t think of gambling as, gambling either. And what I mean by that is, yeah, sports betting is, you know, in some people’s minds is classified as well,
that’s just sports betting. Right? And it doesn’t it’s not gambling or anything in it. Same goes for video gaming and, and all of these things where, it’s hard. And now I’m sorry. I’m, I’m running several topics together here, but you, you add in that latest phenomenon with, prediction markets and that blows everything out of the out of the water.
Right. In terms of kind of at least putting your mind around what classifies as gambling for people. So.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Right.
SHANE COOK
It’s a moving target.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Here it is. And those definitions can trip us up. So we we tend to think of it so so I one of the big kind of missions that I have in a lot of my outreaches to and have like a working definition and said there’s a lot of things that may fall into this definition or maybe close to it.
And they can illicit gambling like behaviors. I don’t need to be getting into, like a legal argument with somebody who, you know, has, you know, we know that some of these products that are gambling, like products will go to the mat saying, we’re not gambling. You know, I’m not interested in those conversations. My, my, my interest is in what kind of behaviors does it elicit in the person, the customer and racket, helping that customer to recognize patterns of, well, like what?
What are some of the features of these products that could have a gambling like, response? And as a result, I need to go into this informed and cautious and with the right mindset, not the mindset of this is a viable means of making money. And even on so one of the major sportsbooks. And I won’t say who they are, though I think it’s great that they’ve got it on their on their responsible gambling page.
They have tips for responsible gambling.
One of the tips is do not see gambling as a means of making money.
So if a major sportsbook, one of the largest sportsbooks in the United States, is telling the user this should not be seen as a way of making money, it should be seen as a form of recreation. So even though money can be made, yes.
I mean, people aren’t stupid. I say this all the time. I had lots of wins. You know, most gamblers have some sort of win, so of course you can win. You’re not going to keep doing something that knocks you down 100% of the time. So yes, you can win or earn or however you want to look at. Ultimately, who wins.
Does the product win, you know, is the bulk of the money you know is there? What’s your return on investment over time? And typically the return on investment over time is less than what you put in. So it is not a moneymaker. It is a, you know, it’s you’re paying for that hope, that hope and that excitement of possibly coming out on top.
And then if so, if you did, what are you going to do with that? You’re going to leave it right in there and put it up, put it all back in, like I said, you know, like give it all back. And so, really helping people to recognize whatever they’re calling it, whether or not they call it gambling, recognizing it.
One of my risking by engaging in this, one of my hoping to get out of it. And then what are some of the things to look out for in myself and, and actually, how can I go into it prepared and, with the right mindset? So that’s a big part because like you said, with with whether it’s daily fantasy sports, day trading, prediction markets, loot boxes and even a lot of things that are games but have a lot of, in-app purchases that can start to elicit a gambling like response.
Let’s not worry about so much about the definitions, but the behaviors that we’re engaging in and what impact they might be having on our lives.
SHANE COOK
Yeah, always good advice. It’s something I, whenever we’re doing an outreach activity is probably one of the more common things, that I at least I engage in conversations with people to stop by to learn more. That’s exactly the conversation we start to have, because it’s an easy conversation to have in public, and get people, at least in that pattern of thinking more deeply about their own, their own habits or their own activities and how they approach it
And you, you have the opportunity to work with, groups of athletes, whether they be amateur or professional. Right. And one of the things that that, often gets overlooked, occasionally we’ll hear about it, but they’re being harassed by other people who are actually placing bets. So, you know, what kind of toll does this take on those athletes, too, right?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
I myself as a female athlete had experienced quite a lot of abusive and very, like misogynistic and and just demoralizing comments from what you might otherwise call sports fans who saw, a female athlete as some sort of, spectacle and, you know, like an object. And, it was, it was I had to push through it.
And I’ve seen other female athletes kind of unfortunately cave and not want to and I understand, not want to be subjected to this and to just not push through it. And it was it was hard to push through that and to, to sit there. And so, as you know, I was an amateur boxer and I’m going in and this is like golden Gloves and I’m in, I’m fighting for the title, and I’m hearing just the most disgusting comments hurled at me from the crowd sometimes.
And, you know, you have to kind of like compartmentalize that and, and do the hard work anyway. And so I just want to say abuse of athletes and this kind of, this kind of, thinking that, that it’s like they’re there for everybody’s entertainment and that in some way they owe you something. I don’t know, it’s it’s not new.
the other big, really big thing with athletes and what I had, which is the illusion of control.
And so we all have heard of heart or wow, they just pulled that out of nowhere. And that is a very real thing where athletes can exceed expectation. They can just be stronger, be faster, be more skillful, than even their training and experience would otherwise allow them. That’s so incredibly powerful in sport. And we tend to think that that same thing applies with gambling, right?
That we can just will something into hap into existence, that we’re we’re smarter than we’re more skillful than. And the illusion of control is actually something very, very dangerous with gambling because we have this inaccurate belief about, how successful we are going to be in this form of gambling and sports betting. Actually, the Illinois Lottery has done some studies about, you know, at, the mindset of the gambler and the illusion of control is very, very high in sports bettors.
The belief that they can accurately predict the outcome of the event is very, very high in sports bettors. And all we have to do is look at the revenue reports. In Illinois, sports bettors lost over $1 billion last year. To see that you may know a lot and you actually do know a lot. And I’ve seen a lot of sports bettors.
They have spreadsheets and they’re super good at math. And stats, and they know all the plays. They do not realize or they overestimate how much that knowledge buys them. It does not buy them, what they think it does. It’s that illusion of control. So we have that illusion of control. I mentioned I was the underdog in most of my fights, even though I was undefeated until my last fight.
I was I was the underdog because I was so small compared to most of my opponents. And, but I still not only would usually win, I would usually win by knockout. And it and it fostered this belief in me that I could just will an outcome and make it happen. Because you can, as an athlete, tap into something that’s almost intangible and outperform, you can’t do that with gambling.
And so that’s, that’s just a very risky characteristic to have and not realize. The other thing I do want to say this, Shane, it’s so important remember had well, I don’t know if we’re going to where we’re going gonna put it in the lineup here. But I mentioned that sports betting is all around our athletes. They see it.
They’re the ads and their family and friends and fellow students. And our I’ll talk about this is so great. This is the best thing, right? But not you. You can’t do it right. The athletes minds are programed to see an obstacle and get around it or closely. Right. That’s. That is what they’re trained to do. It’s automatic. I have an obstacle.
How do I overcome it? I’m going to be faster than it. I’m going to be smarter than it. I’m going to be stronger than it. And so when we are telling these athletes, and.
SHANE COOK
I’ll keep doing it over and over again until I.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Until it works right, until it works right. And so when we tell an athlete, you can’t do this because you’re not allowed, we are naive to think that that alone is going to, you know, prevent engagement in the behavior because we’re missing that their natural instinct is to find the go around. Is it I’m going to use somebody else’s account or I’m gonna, go through this campus bookie, or I’m going to whatever.
So the the mindset is in the quick pivot, like the mindset is already pivoting or plowing through the, the obstacle. And so we’ve got to acknowledge that we, you know, the athletes have these characteristics, these mindsets. Very naturally. We’ve got to acknowledge them, help them to recognize them when that’s kicking in so that they can go, okay, that is this mindset and it’s going to do great for me on the field or in the court, on the court or whatever.
This is not going to help me here. It’s actually to hurt me here.
SHANE COOK
So, Elizabeth, as always, it’s very informational when you join us, you have a lot, a lot of stories to share, a lot of, valuable information to, to share with all of us and with the audience.
So I appreciate that. Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to yet?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yes. I’m so glad you said that because I was moved to say, can I talk about one more thing? Neutrality. So neutrality is an interesting concept in this space that we work in, which is not being for or against gambling, you know, okay. Not be and, and, and for a lot of people, it’s easier than others.
And for a lot of people that’s harder. And sometimes when we have lived experience with gambling related harm, it can be even harder. And so I respect everybody’s, ability to decide for themselves where they fall in. So I did want to just kind of share my this is mine. And I wouldn’t impose it on anybody. As a person who experienced a lot of gambling related harm, it was specific to casino gambling, brick and mortar.
So not online, thankfully. And I still find it very, very important to me to collaborate with literally anyone who wants to collaborate. That can be people who are in recovery, people who are actively struggling, the industry, regulators, anybody. If you care, you’re there. That’s my mindset. And so I have had some, you know, I don’t want to say criticism.
It’s been kind of like, you know, like, why would you work with these people or that group if this group wants to have conversations about how we can prevent gambling harm? I’m talking to you about it. I don’t care what logo you have, you know, on your zoom screen or in your office or, it’s very important because, my relationship to gambling was not sustainable.
There was going to be a crash and burn, and there was an in because of what happened in my whole trajectory, it’s not an option for me anymore. And I kind of there’s times where I nostalgically would say, I kind of wish I could once in a while, but I can’t, I cannot be a customer of any, you know, gambling, product anymore.
And, so I do think it’s in everybody’s best interest to try to prevent gambling related harm. Sometimes that’s going to mean certain people opt out and choose not to gamble at all. Sometimes it’s going to mean that certain people decide I can gamble later, but not right now. When I’m a NCAA athlete or a pro athlete or or whatever it is, or when I’m going through a divorce or when I’ve just lost my job, or I’m going into retirement and I’ve got this weird life change thing that I have to navigate.
And sometimes it’s going to mean that that person can have a more sustainable relationship to that product, because they learned what to look for and what it’s supposed to look like and what it’s not supposed to look like. And they got feedback on their play and they corrected course as It happened. So I really think those conversations can be, you know, powerful.
And for me, neutrality isn’t difficult in that I want to have those conversations. And I think we can be more effective if we’re putting our heads together versus if I’m over here with only people who think like me. I want to talk to people who don’t think like me. I think.
SHANE COOK
Well, that’s the only way you make progress.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yeah, yeah. And I do think we kind of are in somewhat of a, sometimes a divisive world where if somebody has a disagreement, well, then I can’t talk to you like I want to talk to you because maybe I’m wrong or maybe I don’t see things in a certain way. And I’ll see them if I talk more to you about why you feel that way.
I’ve actually been at some conferences where there’s been, criticism of why is this conference sponsored by this, this gambling product or whatever, this entity. And, again, I think we all have a, an obligation. Oh, I was maybe I shouldn’t say obligation. Maybe that’s too strong. I we all have the opportunity to play a role in preventing gambling harm.
Okay. Yeah. And I would.
SHANE COOK
Say the same thing. It’s.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yes, it’s.
SHANE COOK
What role.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Is. What’s your role? And, and if there’s profit from gambling, I do think then we crossover into, degree of obligation to, try to mitigate and prevent in and address gambling related harms. And however that gets done, I, I, I think that that’s important and, and I have actually said to some people in some cases that’s my money.
Right. Like I lost a whole lot like so when we talk about like gambling money like that, where does it come from. The gambler. So it going back to help the gambler in no way in my mind is inappropriate. But again, I respect other people’s thoughts on that and opinions. I just wanted to share my own because I don’t think we talk about that very much.
SHANE COOK
Yeah. No, that’s a that’s a really good I appreciate you doing that because, it is,
It can be a tricky topic. Depending on the depending on the venue, the audience you’re with, the, I mean, there’s all kinds of things, that play into that, but I think it’s, it it comes down to being human, right? And being a person. And we’re all on the same marble here. How can we coexist? Those sorts of things.
We all have issues. And I think you you highlighted this quite succinctly is we need to have open dialog even more today than maybe years and years ago. We just need that ability to have conversations without going nuts. I mean, yeah, let’s talk about both sides of the equation because there’s always two sides to it. There’s yours. There’s mine.
But I mean, it doesn’t mean we can’t coexist, right?
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Yeah, definitely. So I appreciate the opportunity to talk about that. And some of these other topics. And when I mentioned ahead of time that, I’m going to give it, you know, me and analogies like there’s a place that I went, they had this thing called a garbage salad and it was a little bit of everything, and you put it all together and it was really good.
And I said, you had said, what are some of the things that you never got to talk about or whatever? So I feel like this is a bit of a garbage salad episode, and I hope that your listeners appreciate it. And, maybe they’ll reach out to you and let you know other things, but they’re like, why do you never talk about that? So.
SHANE COOK
Well, absolutely. And and, you know, that might be the perfect time to say if you’re ever in the Chicago land area and you drive by a restaurant that starts with a P and ends with an illos, and you might find that salad there. Yeah, it’s probably one of the best things on the menu. Yeah, that’s my opinion.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
In my humble opinion.
SHANE COOK
Yes that’s right. All right Elizabeth, thank you so much. It’s great to see you again. Always enlightening conversation. Any time we get to sit down together and and chit chat. So I appreciate the willingness to come on and share what you wish you could have shared elsewhere over the last couple of months.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
All right. And if you get any other guests that get on more than me, then bring me back on because I’m not trying to lose.
SHANE COOK
So we’ll keep you in the lead.
ELIZABETH THIELEN
Thank you.
SHANE COOK
All right.
SHANE COOK
We love hearing from you, so please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast. You can reach out to us directly via email at wager Danger at Gateway foundation.org. Look for us on Facebook at Recover gateway on LinkedIn at gateway Dash Foundation, or through our website at Gateway foundation.org. Wager danger is supported through funding, in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Use Prevention and Recovery.
And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you or a family member, is struggling with a gambling problem. Call gateway at (844) 975-3663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.
