- May 08, 2026
- Gambling
Gambling got its hooks into Adam Lyons early. At nine years old, his uncle taught him how to play craps, and something clicked that never really switched off. By the time the poker boom hit, Adam had dropped out of college and was dealing cards in poker rooms from Connecticut to Las Vegas. He was good at the job, great with people, and one of the most charismatic guys in the room. What nobody knew was that the same man running the game was quietly losing everything on the other side of the table.
Adam placed his last bet in 2022, and today he hosts the Modern Meeting podcast and talks to other people with gambling disorder about their journeys out of the depths of addiction.
Listen in on a fascinating conversation as Adam shares his story.
Connect with Adam at The Modern Meeting on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Instagram
Engage with Wager Danger:
Call Gateway Foundation: 844-975-3663
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Text GAMB to 833234
ADAM LYONS
All I had to do was look in the mirror and realize that gambling was destroying me from the inside out.
SHANE COOK
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Wager Danger, a podcast about gambling addiction and recovery. I’m Shane Cook, gambling disorder program director at Gateway Foundation. And on this episode, we have an emotional story of a 20 year journey to recovery.
Adam Lyons was introduced to shooting craps by his uncle at nine years old.
That thrill set in motion a decades long addiction to gambling.
He lived in six cities, had more than 20 jobs, went through bankruptcy and had a list of every person he owed money to on his phone.
He finally hit rock bottom in an Oklahoma parking lot after a bad beat and realized he needed help, which he found through gamblers anonymous.
However, after attending these meetings, he realized he wanted to give back even more. And now he’s the host of The Modern Meeting podcast, where he helps other gamblers tell their stories and find their way back to recovery.
This is one of the most raw and honest conversations we’ve had on Wager Danger. Adam, welcome to the show.
ADAM LYONS
Thanks, Shane. Yeah.
SHANE COOK
if you wouldn’t mind, just, you have a very compelling story, and I’m wondering if you wouldn’t mind sharing some of that story with us.
00;01;29;06 – 00;01;46;13
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. For sure. Once again, appreciate you having me. And, I’ll give you guys the, you know, slightly shorter version. But yeah, so I, I essentially I gambled for, for 20 years from the age of 18 to 38.
But the seeds were planted when I was nine years old. I grew up with, my mom’s side of the family was, they had some they had some gambling, on their side, especially specifically my uncle, who was teaching me how to play craps at, like, nine years old. And, I can picture it right now. I remember him showing me, you know, how what the hard ways meant. And, you know, you don’t want a seven because that it’s seven out, seven out.
And he would grab my my nickels and dimes and I would lose, and then, you know, growing up with, like, scratch tickets. You know, I grew up in Massachusetts, so, the mass lottery. I just feel like it was, you know, it was kind of, that, you know, I just feel like, you know, you’re always hearing about scratch tickets in the lottery and the casinos opening up in the in the mid to late, not or the mid 90s in, in, nearby Connecticut.
But yeah, gambling was just, it was around and, I noticed that, like, not, the rest of my cousins, nobody was interested. Right. Like, at Christmastime, they’re all waiting for Santa and they’re in the other room, and I’m trying to get in on the nickel dime poker game with the adults at, like, 12, 13. 14 years old. But through high school, I didn’t gamble.
I thought about gambling, you know, not like, you know, I wouldn’t say I thought about gambling, but whenever someone was gambling, I was very interested. It would be okay. Like, I wouldn’t scratch scratch tickets. But I love watching people scratch tickets. Right? And so, but once I got to college, I went to, So I grew up in a small town on Clinton, Massachusetts, which is about 14,000 people, 120 people in my graduating high school class.
And I went to a college in Western Massachusetts that there was 20,000 people in the undergraduate program. So it was, you know, I went from, a big fish in a small pond to now I’m, I’m a minnow in the ocean, and I. Yeah, I did not I did not adjust. Well, looking back on it now, the first thing I did was, you know, I found my roommate and a few other people on my floor.
They liked to play poker, and I was like, oh, well, shit, I love poker. And so that led to us playing poker five nights a week. I shouldn’t say us because I feel like they had they had some balance in their lives, you know, they they, they went out occasionally. But me, if it was like, stay in the dorm and play in a three person, $5 poker tournament or go out, I was always playing poker, okay.
And, so for two years, that’s all I did in college.
SHANE COOK
And it was it was readily accessible for you and college at.
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. And and also, you know, this was, this was at the time where online poker was starting to. So I think I my sophomore year of college, that’s when I started playing party poker and Paradise Poker. But once again, it was just for five, ten, $20. It wasn’t a big financial issue, but the obsession was growing.
The, you know, just, me making poor decisions, because of the gambling, you know, me lying. You know, I, I remember I, I lied to my parents and told them I needed money for books, and they sent me money, and I just used it to gamble. So, you know, once I got into recovery, looking back and I started kind of, you know, reflecting, I realized that this is when this is when it started.
And, so after two years of that, I was, you know, asked to kindly leave, by the university because I, you know, I, I had a poor GPA and, you know, I was a smart kid, you know, I, I, I was the kid who, like, did nothing in high school but still did pretty well. So imagine if I actually applied myself and same thing in college for the first two years.
And so I had the brilliant idea after that of, well, I’m going to take a year off of college because I don’t know what I want to do. But you know what I love? I love poker, I love gambling, right? And
I was playing poker. I was actually playing blackjack illegally at one of the Connecticut casinos. I was 20 years old.
I got a fake ID, and, you know, I didn’t get a fake I.D. to drink. I got a fake I.D. so I could go to the casino.
And, I remember having a conversation with one of the dealers, and they were like. Yeah, they’re. They’re the dealer at the poker dealer school is starting down the road. And I thought, wow, that’s a cool job.
And so that’s what I did. I, I took the poker dealer school, and I became a poker dealer, at one of the big casinos in Connecticut. Okay. And, that was great. I, you know, I was making good money. I got promoted within, like, eight months to a dual rate, which means that you are a floor supervisor some night.
So, you know, I’m walking in, I’m not even 21 years old, and I’m walking in a suit, and I’m seeing people and I’m, you know, tell them, you know, so I, my ego was, was was getting, you know, was starting to get really sure. And then all of a sudden, you know, once I got comfortable, you know, I’ll never forget, like, one night, coworkers were like, hey, we’re going to Mohegan the next, the casino, ten minutes down the road.
Hey, we’re going to Mohegan after work. You want to come? And I was like, sure. Yeah. Why not? And now at this point, I really only played poker, didn’t play any table games, didn’t really play slots. Yeah. And so to this casino down the road that didn’t have poker. And so now I’m playing craps, I’m getting reintroduced to craps.
SHANE COOK
Okay.
ADAM LYONS
And then, one of the first big turning points was someone told me about cash advances on credit cards because, you know, I was only making so much money. And, you know, I didn’t have a lot of bills, but, you know, I was bringing 100 or $200 to the casino after work. But now and this is pre-recession, right?
This is like 2005. I could get a $5,000 credit card by just signing. Signing up. Yeah. And I did that like 3 or 4 times. And over the course of the next few years, that’s all I did. I would drive to work, I would work my shift, or sometimes I would leave my shift early and I would drive ten minutes down the road, and I would gamble all night at the casino doing cash advances.
And, yeah, that was that was definitely like the first, you know, the first point in my gambling where it just completely got out of control and I, and I put myself in a hole that I couldn’t get out of.
SHANE COOK
So you mentioned that when you when you were working at the casino, people were asking you to come out and join them at a different casino go game. I’m, I’m assuming that there were rules and restrictions against employees gambling at the casino where you work.
ADAM LYONS
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so it’s funny you ask, because in Vegas and, you know, in Texas, in these card rooms, like a lot of places, you can gamble at the place you work. You can literally get off work, go downstairs to your car, change your uniform, put on some some clothes and you can come back and gamble. But at the Connecticut casinos you cannot.
So I yeah, I couldn’t do anything. It was Foxwoods. Foxwoods was the name of the casino okay. Yeah. I could not gamble there. So. So yeah that was interesting.
SHANE COOK
So was that was that rule in place as a deterrent or was that just, standard practice that they implemented? That’s a great that was unique.
ADAM LYONS
I honestly don’t know the answer to it, but I know that for for most of the casinos outside of Las Vegas, that is the standard. I think it’s it’s to prevent from probably from like collusion. It’s it’s to prevent from you know, I think it might have something to do with like the gaming licenses. But yeah, I think outside of Vegas that is that that is the norm.
That’s the it’s like a corporate casino. You can’t gamble where you where you work.
SHANE COOK
Okay. So the, the individuals who invite you to, to go out and and gamble at another casino where they as into the gambling lifestyle as you were at this point.
ADAM LYONS
You know, the short answer is no. I think you know, there were plenty of nights where, you know, I can remember it would be like me and 2 or 3 other people. And then, you know, after an hour, they’re ready to go. And I wanted to stay or, you know, they’re cool with leaving up 50 bucks and I’m battling and I’m at even I’m like, well, you know, I’m not going to leave even.
Right? I didn’t come here to break even. I either. I, you know, I either want to win or I want to lose. So I got okay. So so yeah, very early on and honestly and those people noticed that. Right. And I think like the running joke early on in my gambling was,
oh yeah, Adam is a crazy gambler. But like nobody took it seriously.
So it’s like my actions and the way I gambled was definitely a red flag to people. But they didn’t take it seriously. They did not look at it as if it was, you know, the way you might look at a drug addict or someone struggling with alcohol and that’s and that’s the that’s the biggest that’s one of the biggest hurdles right now, even to this day, 20 years later with gambling, is that people just don’t take it seriously.
I credit it to, you know, I do have a kind of a photographic memory where, you know, for those that listen to my podcast, The Modern Meeting, like the first 90 something episodes, I told my story in detail and I can remember a lot of stuff for whatever reason.
But the other part is that I was given the tools in recovery in Gamblers Anonymous, where it taught me how to go back, you know, how to write everything down, you know, to go through this. You know, I haven’t completed all 12 steps, but, you know, the early steps where you just, you know, you need to reflect, you need to write things down, and you need to just kind of dig in, to dig into everything.
And so through that. Yeah, I’ve been able to uncover a lot of details that I hadn’t thought of since they happened, you know?
SHANE COOK
Okay. Yeah. Not not to jump too far ahead. So you, you at some point during this process, you started recognizing that things might be spiraling a little bit. Sure.
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. Yeah. No. So it’s, it’s so to, to, to catch us up. So I so basically, you know, when I started using the cash advances, it escalated very quickly. And then, you know, I ended up leaving Foxwoods, I ended up going back to school, getting my degree. But while that’s happening, you know, now I’m scratching tickets, I’m playing keno in bars.
I’m going to the casinos whenever I can. And about at the halfway point, around 28 years old is when I was in like 30 something thousand dollars worth of debt from gambling, and I didn’t know what to do. I was behind on all my bills for the first time ever, and my dad suggested that I declare bankruptcy.
He didn’t think there was any other way out. And at the time, you know, we didn’t know about Gamblers Anonymous. We didn’t know that a bankruptcy is probably the worst thing I could have done. But that’s what we did. We we I declared bankruptcy and I wiped all that debt. And, you know, I, I was like, okay, that was a crazy ten years, but it’s over now.
I’m going to start my life over. You know, I can’t buy a house for seven years or whatever it was from the bankruptcy, but at least all that is behind me, like, let’s let’s get to work. And I was ashamed. I was embarrassed, you know, I,
I thought I would never gamble again because it was, I couldn’t believe I just declared bankruptcy at 28 years old.
And, but then all of a sudden, you know, a few weeks later, the paychecks start to pile up.
You know, all the bills are all the bills are clear, and, and, I just I get that itch again and I’m like, wow. Okay. So I kind of want to gamble. And then and then, you know, I, I, I call it a disease.
And you know, I know a lot of us do. And but the disease started piping in these justifications to me are these, these, these pipe dreams of like, well, let’s just play poker or let’s budget or let’s never take our debit card to the casino, you know, like we’re going to do it differently this time. It’s going to be different.
And in that moment I 100% bought in. I thought, yeah, I’m never going to put myself in this position again. So I’m just going to do it normally and about a few years after that. But so I have all this, I come to this realization, but I also say, but I can’t stay here. I can’t stay in my hometown because everybody knows that I declared bankruptcy because of gambling.
And I was, instead of facing them and like, I just ran. And so for the last ten years of my 20 years of gambling, I lived in six different cities, had 20 something different jobs, 12 different addresses. And, you know, looking back, like each time I left each place I was pointing the finger at, like, you know, my job stinks or I hate my boss, or I just need a new change of scenery or, oh, I just got I got offered this promotion or I got offered this job with more money that’s going to make things better.
But it wasn’t any of those things. All I had to do was look in the mirror and realize that gambling was destroying me from the inside out, right? Yeah. And, you know,
I would say it was probably around like 2013, 2014. I was living in New York City. I was living in Brooklyn, working in Manhattan. And so this is about, you know, about eight years before I got help.
I remember that was the moment where I was like, wow, this isn’t a phase. This isn’t something I’m going to grow out of. Like, I can’t stop, right? Like I had that real I’ll never forget. I was sitting in my apartment in Brooklyn after like, you know, another another trip to Atlantic City on the Greyhound bus. And I came home broke like I always did.
And I remember thinking, like, I need help, but I wasn’t ready. And that was the first time where I realized, like, I can’t control this thing.
SHANE COOK
It’s crazy. How how did I that moment of self-reflection, though, and your ability to understand what you’re going through, did that convince you that you needed to look for or search for some assistance or some help, to deal with this? Because I, I would think at that point, you recognize I feel powerless. How can I regain control?
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. So it’s a great question, Shane. And, you know, when people ask me that, I go back to there was one night in like 2009. So like seven years into my 20 years where I went to a G.A. meeting with my buddy, who was also a gambler, and we almost went as a joke. Okay. But I knew that, like deep down, like I did want to check it out because I knew that, like, you know, this this might not, you know, I knew about my uncle.
You know, I didn’t mention my uncle who passed away in 2017. He hit for $100,000 on a scratch ticket twice. Gambled his whole life. When he passed, he left his family with less than nothing. They had to foreclose in their house, and he never got help. So I knew it was in my blood. I knew it was genetic.
But I went to that GAA meeting and the same literature that would touch my heart and soul. February 8th, 2022. The same exact yellow book. I read it in 2009 and it went in one ear and out the other because I wasn’t ready to hear it. Right. Okay. And I think in that moment in New York, you know, that was I think when I, I, I’ve actually never really said this out loud, but like, I do think that moment where I realized I had a problem, like part of that was God, part of that was like my higher power being like, let’s like holding the mirror up to me.
And and I just wasn’t ready. I wasn’t I thought that I could figure it out, I thought that I could manage it right. Like, I, I knew I had a problem at this point. I knew that I had no control over this thing. But you know what? I can get control, right? And a lot of that was my pride.
A lot of that was my ego. A lot of that was the fact that everything else in my life was going okay. I was living in New York City. I was making great money. I was, you know, I was making all these new awesome friends. I wasn’t just gambler on my days off. I would gamble, but like when I would get out of work from the restaurant.
I worked in the restaurant industry. And, you know, when I would get out of work, I’d go hang out till the sun came up in New York with my friends and didn’t even think about gambling. So I did have some balance. But whenever I needed to escape or whenever I, you know, whenever I just wanted to get away, it wasn’t, you know, go for a run or it wasn’t, you know, go for a walk or it wasn’t like, you know, reconnect with old friends.
It was, where can I gamble? Where can I? Okay, where can I just turn the volume down in my head and just, you know.
And the thing to Shane, the thing that kept me going all these years was once again, like living that double life. But like when I say that everything else was going well, like, I had a streak where I went like 12 for 12 in job interviews and everything I applied for, I got or every, every promotion I went for, I got and, you know, obviously I think that’s like, you know, it speaks to my ability to interview it spoke to my resume at the time, and I ignored the fact that, like, those 12 interviews took place over the course of, like, eight years or less, you know what I mean?
But each time I got that job, that new job, or I went for that new promotion and I got it, that was just fuel for my delusion of like, see, gambling isn’t that big of a deal. Like, look at this job. I just landed, right, like, and that kept happening. But if I, if I could have took a step back and play devil’s advocate, how about you just stay at one job for those 12 years and work your way up?
Right. You keep. Okay. Yeah. You’re getting a job as, like, an AGM or a GM of a restaurant, but if you just stay at that first place, you could be you could own the place by now. Right? Like, I didn’t think of it that way. I was once again, just always looking for that fresh start.
SHANE COOK
Right. So, during this time period, though, you, you mentioned that you would move several times. So after after New York City, where did you go after that? And and how did that how did that develop?
ADAM LYONS
Yeah, absolutely. So so I was it so, you know, the bankruptcy happens in mass. I say, I gotta get out of here. I can’t stay here. I go to New York for almost five years. I come back to Boston for a year. And this is a crucial part in the story, because this is where I said out loud to someone else that I do have a problem.
And it was to my best friend Noah, who has been on my podcast. And, you know, he’s a fellow gambler, but he has control. But I told him, like, I need help and I think I should self exclude from these two Connecticut casinos because we were living in Boston. It’s only about an hour from the casinos, and me and him were going every weekend, every.
We both worked in the restaurant industry. We made it so we had the same days off, and we would go every weekend. And so I went down there in like late 2016 and I self excluded. And so now I can’t really gamble on a casino. There was some Rhode Island casinos that were about to open, but, you know, they were they were far away and I really didn’t like have a lot of interest in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I definitely went to them, but I, so I was I was self excluded. I did it for five years so I could not set foot in either of those casinos for five years, or I would get arrested for trespassing. But so now what the disease started doing subconsciously was it started planting this idea in my head of like, well, we can’t stay here because we can’t gamble.
So where do you want to go? And so after about a year in Boston, I went back to New York and I went back to New York, worked for the same restaurant group that I, worked that I worked at before, but I’m still going to Atlantic City, and I’m sitting in a suite in Atlantic City. Typical bullshit where I, you know, I went down for three nights.
I was broke by night. One. I’m just sitting in my room and I get a phone call from a Vegas number and I’m like, well, who is calling me from Vegas? I let it go to voicemail. Long story short, it was Aria Casino because I had applied to be a poker dealer there like two summers ago, and they just randomly call me and they basically say, we’re looking for experienced poker dealers to come out and deal the World Series of Poker for three months.
You know, dealing at Aria. But during the World Series of Poker Vegas, the poker rooms are very busy. So I said you up. Sure. And so, I flew out to audition. I get the audition. Quick side note on that. I went out with 300 bucks. I turned it into 3000 on night one. I was there for a day and a half.
First thing I did was I played a Keno slot. I turned 300 into 3000. And I thought to myself, I am definitely taking this job. I’m definitely going to get this job and this is going to be amazing. I’m going to live in Vegas. I’m gonna have all this fun stuff. By the time I got on the plane, a day and a half later, I gave all that money back.
Plus the money I went with. Wow. And so. But I get the job, and now everyone in my life is like, what are you doing? Like, you cannot go live out in Vegas. And then now I need to get into salesman mode, right? So I say, listen, hold on. I’m only going out for three months. Not even.
It’s like two months. And I have so many comps on all of my Caesars properties that I go to in Atlantic City. I was able to map out out of the 60 days I was going to be out there, like 56 of them. I had a free room. So I’m like, I’m not paying for rent. I’m going to go out.
And everyone everything. I research on the internet, everyone I talk to you. I’m going to make great money out there. I’m telling my dad, like, I’ll send you money. And, and it’s going to be great. And if they offer me a full time position, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. So I go out there now,
I drive from New York to Vegas.
My buddy came with me to Chicago, and then he went home. I get in the car in Chicago. Shane and I don’t make it 30 minutes until I find a casino in Council Bluffs, Iowa. And I was going out there with like 1500 bucks to my name. And I go into that casino and I think, well, it’d be nice if I had like five grand instead of 1500.
Right. Just to get myself start, you know, just the same delusional bullshit that we, we say to ourselves when we want to justify our gambling. Long story short, at one point I had all $1,500 on the craps table where if I lost, I was stuck in the middle of the country with no money, and I still had two and a half days worth of traveling to get to Vegas.
Now, luckily, this guy rolled a hard six and had like 100 bucks on it and I ended up. I ended up like up $10. And I went to the casino and I got into my car and I just I started sobbing like, right now, it was like it was me versus the disease. And I was screaming in my head like, turn around, don’t do this.
You can’t even make it to Vegas without risking all your money. Like, what do you think you’re gonna do when you get there? Yeah. And, it was heavy, man. I mean, like I said, I was openly sobbing, and I, I it was raining, and I didn’t know what to do. And then the disease just starts piping and, hey, listen, that was crazy.
That was dumb. Don’t do that again. You got it out of your system. There’s no more casinos on the route you’re taking. You’re taking the northern route. Let’s just get to Vegas. Let’s get working.
And so, you know, wipe my tears. I keep driving, I get out to Vegas and as usual, you know, I crush it. I do really well at the job.
Within a month, they offer me a full time position, which I accept. And I tell everyone back home, don’t worry. And so I lived in Vegas, for, like, a year and a half, and then I, from there, MGM Springfield in Massachusetts was opening up. And so I take a promotion to go back to mass.
And now this is where the cycle happens, where it’s like, okay, I’m back in mass. I’m there for a year and a half. I work my way up to a shift manager in the poker room once again, I think the 12th job interview I had in eight years, or whatever it was, I had the least amount of experience out of all this.
Four supervisors that went out for the shift manager job, and I got it. Okay, why did I get it? I don’t know, I, I interview well, I don’t know I but you know, I and I did a good job and I and I loved it, I loved the job and the staff loved me. Everything was good. Still gambling.
Now I’m borrowing from people. I’m borrowing from, employees. Like, it’s getting bad. It’s getting really dicey. Yeah, but that double life now is like, you can’t tell half the time. If I don’t tell you I’m gambling, you wouldn’t know because I’m walking in the suit. I’m charismatic. I’m sure I’m doing everything I’m doing.
SHANE COOK
You look the part, you know?
ADAM LYONS
But the the borrowing started getting out of control now. So now I’m walking around on my phone with a list of people that I owe money to. It’s friends, family, coworkers. And I’ll tell you a quick story. It was around 2018. I had about $12,000 worth of debt on my phone, a list of ten people I owed money to, and it was a typical night where out.
So now I’m still self excluded from the mass, the Connecticut casinos. But I started going to those Rhode Island casinos. I was taking a two hour drive from the edge of Western Mass all the way down to Rhode Island just to gamble. And I would do it all the time. And, I turned $150.
SHANE COOK
That’s two hours each way.
ADAM LYONS
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yep. And I turned $150 into 15,000 in 20 minutes. At the craps table where I wasn’t shooting, there was another guy. He threw four hard eights in a row, and I kept parlaying at each time. And so when that I. That moment happens, I have $15,000. The most money I’ve ever done in my life by a mile in one like, session.
And I’m looking up to a God that at that point I don’t even believe in. But I’m thanking him. And I wiped all the data on my phone. Not before I called them all and said, hey, I came into some money. I know I owe you a thousand. I’ve been paying you 50 bucks a week. If I send you 700, are we square?
And of course, you know, it’s mostly friends and family. They’re like, yeah, sure. And, you know, so, like, I was just such a scumbag instead of paying them off, like, I’m still trying to nickel and dime people. But so at that point, I had told my parents, I had told close friends, like, I’m done, I’m even, not even lifetime, but I’m.
I don’t know anyone, any money. I’m going to get help. I’m going to go to GA.
SHANE COOK
Okay.
ADAM LYONS
And then I never went to GA. And three months later I had a new list on my phone owing just as much, if not more. And so. So now.
SHANE COOK
And now, when was this just, time reference?
ADAM LYONS
Yep, yep. So this is like late 2018. So okay, so so so now this is happening. And so now I’m starting to feel the walls come in in Springfield. Right. Like I’m borrowing from employees. I’m not paying them back in a timely manner. I know that it’s all it’s going to take is one person to go to HR and I’m screwed.
Right. And so now I start looking for a way out again, and I start talking to some of my friends in Vegas, and they’re telling me that Aria is looking for some full time floor supervisors. Now that would be a demotion. Like two. I would go from being a shift manager to like down to a floor supervisor, but it’d be Vegas.
It’d be comparable money because you get tipped and stuff. And so in, early 2020, I made the decision to go back out to Vegas. Now, remember early 2020, right before a global pandemic? Yeah. So
I had back out to Vegas. This is like city number four on my six city tour. And, the pandemic hits you know, you know, I sat and I had a I had two roommates in a nice house in Henderson, and, just like a lot of people, you know, by, like, June, I had so much money in my checking account because of the stimulus and the unemployment and and everything.
And I was convinced that I wasn’t going to gamble anymore because I hadn’t been in a casino because they were closed. Right. And, so I had about, I don’t know, like maybe like 13,000 or $14,000 from the pandemic. And then the first weekend that the casinos opened, I said to my, one of my roommates, like, let’s just go and we’ll see what it’s like.
And, you know, whatever. Yeah. And so I go, I lose a couple hundred. Shane that was on a Friday. By Sunday I had lost everything. I lost everything from the pandemic, everything in any savings account I had, I took, you know, I can’t tell you how many 401Ks that I have emptied, but yeah, within, within 72 hours of the casinos opening back up, all that money that I had accumulated from the pandemic, I blew it in three days.
And in 2021, when when Aria wasn’t going well and I heard, rumblings that MGM National Harbor in Washington, DC was looking for a new shift manager, I said, well, let me see if I can, if I can get another interview. And once again, I went through like three rounds of interviews. And from what I hear, it was a bunch of people that had more experience than me.
ADAM LYONS
And I got it.
SHANE COOK
Okay.
ADAM LYONS
And so now we’re heading to DC.
SHANE COOK
So back east, we’re.
ADAM LYONS
Heading back east. You know, they paid for my relocation like, you know, and I and I can’t tell you how many times I would tell everybody like, yeah, you know, it’s, you know, they paid for my relocation and it’s, you know, it’s a it’s the number one revenue generating program in the country, you know, just just just blowing up my ego, blowing smoke up everybody, you know, which they were all those were all facts.
But it’s like, once again, I, I forgot to tell them that this is my 24th job in the last ten years, right? Yeah. And so I go there and same thing. Things are going well, but I borrow money from the wrong person. I was there for almost a year, and H.R. does find out about it. They do put me on a Pep, or they were about to put me on a pep.
And, and I said, I said, nah, I’m good. And I ran again to the final city. We’re almost there. Austin, Texas. I go to Austin, Texas. My buddy who was with me in Aria the first time. He ended up going down to Texas when all those poker rooms were exploding. I got offered me a job deal in poker.
He’s like, don’t worry about all that bullshit. Like, just come down. Deal? Poker, get back to your roots, make 500 bucks a night, and then figure out what you’re going. Do it your life. I’m like, you know what? That sounds like a perfect idea. And, And so I told my dad. And the kicker was, there was no casino within, like, 4.5 hours of Austin, Texas.
Right. So so I said, let’s do it. So I went down there and for 5 or 6 months I sent my dad money. The plan was, I want to save 50 grand, however long that took. Maybe it was, you know, going to take maybe a year, year and a half. It’s going to save 50 grand, send it to my dad and I was going to come home, go to GA, start my life over because the one aspect of my story I haven’t really touched on was that my parents bailed me out so many times over those 20 years, like so many times where I owed money to someone, I couldn’t pay them or I just, I just lied to them and said I needed money for something where I just wanted to gamble. And the only reason they kept doing is because I always paid them back. And that was the thing for a lot of people that let me borrow money is I always paid people back, but I could just never I couldn’t stop.
And so my at this point, my parents were not giving me anything. But my dad said that he will absolutely hold my money for me and that when I do come home, he will support me as far as like, yeah, definitely, you should go to GA and blah blah blah.
SHANE COOK
Okay.
ADAM LYONS
And so now it’s January 2022, okay? I didn’t send my dad as much as I could have, but I had sent him a good amount. Like, you know, we’re talking like five figures. You know, I’d been there for five months. I presented them like, you know, a few thousand a month. And then I made a big bet on the, NFC Championship game in 2022.
I lost the bet. And for whatever reason, can I swear on here?
SHANE COOK
Sure. That’s fine.
ADAM LYONS
I’m sorry. Yeah. So whatever reason, you know, usually with my gambling, I have a few phases before I enter the Fukkit phase. But for whatever reason, I lost that bet and I just immediately went to the fukkit phase where I just said, fuck it, and I. I pulled up my phone and I typed in nearest casino, and it was 4.5 hours away in Oklahoma, and I got in my car half drunk, and I drove in the middle of the night by myself, and I went on a 36 hour binge where I lost everything.
Everything that I had to my name besides what I had sent to my dad during those 36 hours, I had countless people Venmo me, PayPal me. When the dust settled, I had lost thousands and I found myself in a parking lot in Oklahoma. And for the first time in 20 years, I had this feeling wash over me that, you know, people say it’s corny and they don’t believe me, but I swear it was.
Something happened, something touched me. Whether it was my higher power or God, I don’t know. But I had this moment where I just looked around. I’m like, how did I get here? What, what what did I just do? And I’m okay. Okay. Yeah. I’m. I’m ready. I need help, and I looked up in the car there. I looked up GAA meetings.
I saw that there was 1 in 6 days in Austin, and I made the decision right then and there that six days from now, I’m going to get help.
SHANE COOK
You’re going so. So tell me a little bit more about, what I would characterize as divine intervention. Yeah. At that point, as did you have a feeling of calm at that point or clarity or I what how how would you describe it? I mean, you’ve described it, but I’m trying to get a little bit more descriptive clarification for what it meant for others.
ADAM LYONS
That’s was it was it was all the above. It was, it was, it was a sense of calm. It was a sense of almost relief. It was a sense of clarity where I was like, okay, like I don’t, I want to keep living life, but I can’t live this life anymore. I can’t do it. And and when I say something washed over me, it truly, literally felt like someone was in the car with me or something was in the car with me, like, like rubbing my shoulder or being just like, it’s over.
Like it’s over now. Okay, I need I should also say this though, I think part of the reason if looking back, being completely transparent with myself, there’s a small part that the reason I came to that conclusion is that I know I had to come clean to my dad, because I borrowed so much from so many people that I had to take some of that money back.
So I knew I was gonna have to come clean to my dad. And I knew that, like, my dad would probably not send me the money unless I promised him I was getting help. So there is there is a part of that, too. And and this just shows the power of the disease. So I think all of that happened like late Sunday, Monday.
By the time it was over, it was like early Tuesday. That meeting wasn’t happening for another six days.
SHANE COOK
Right.
ADAM LYONS
And three days later, when that spiritual awakening kind of wore off a little bit, I played poker one more time, and I lost like $1,500 that I borrowed from somebody. So and then when I was driving to that first meeting with my buddy who came for support, shout out to Phil. I’m driving there and me and Phil joke about it like I was telling Phil, like, listen, I’m glad I’m going here, but I guarantee, like, I’m going to go in and, you know, I’m just going to realize that, like, I’m just depressed or I’m just, you know, this is a product of like my anxiety or I just need, you know, I need to lose
weight. I need, I need to get in a into a better relationship like so even driving to the GAA meeting after having that spiritual awakening, that was the disease last ditch effort.
SHANE COOK
So your question okay. Yeah. So you were in an internal struggle on whether this is the right thing or not. But at the same time, you seem pretty passionate that what you had was an experience that was somewhat of an intervention divine though it may have been. Your thought process was halted at some point during that process?
ADAM LYONS
Oh, 100%, Shane. And like, okay, you know, I, I talk a lot about how so some people don’t agree with this, but the way I try to describe it, it’s like, okay, I personally think that I was born with a bunch of light switches in my head. Right. And and they are all turned off when you’re born. And then through experience and through like exposure, they’re turned on.
SHANE COOK
Yeah. Yeah.
ADAM LYONS
And and you know, you that either turns on addiction or it turned, you know, like when someone turned on my alcohol switch I can drink alcohol normally to this day I can go out and I can have a glass of wine with dinner. It be fine. I can go to a Red Sox game and have two beers and not want to drink anymore, right?
ADAM LYONS
But when my uncle turned on my gambling switch at nine years old, it was on. And when I had that spiritual awakening, I believe that that light switch started to flicker, right? It started like it wasn’t off yet. It started to flicker. Okay, whatever happened in that car made it flicker. And then when I walked into that meeting, I tell everybody at 7:00, February 8th, 2022.
And I walked into that meeting in Austin, Texas. By 715, I had completed step one. I had realized my life had become unmanageable. And that flip, that thing was shut off. And I have never looked back since. I, I cannot explain it. I, I’m so grateful, but I cannot explain what happened to me that first night, because since that first night, I have never had an urge to gamble.
I have never thought about gambling in that way because I just, I know after that first night, it was like it became so clear to me through the literature, through the people in that room that this is where I need to be, but also just the realization that, like, I have to surrender. I cannot gamble normally, ever. And that’s just that’s just the way life is going to be, you know?
SHANE COOK
Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s a powerful moment. That, I, I think, I think most people would have a moment like that that they could share, where everything, yeah, alignment takes place. And, I think that’s, the fact that you’re able to reflect back on that and identify when that happened, how it happened in the process around it.
It’s just testimony to the to the work that you’ve done, since that time.
So. Yeah. And the one thing I would add, though, is that you know, for me, stopping gambling has been amazing, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg, honestly. Because what I, what I realized early on is that the gambling is the gambling is the result of what’s really going on inside my heart and my soul. And, you know, my first year in recovery, I created more debt.
ADAM LYONS
And I was just as, I don’t want to say, miserable, but like everyone would always say in the GAA rooms like my life is better now that I’m not gambling. And for that first year, I would always shake my head and be like, I feel the same. Like I’m still in debt, I’m still living paycheck to paycheck. And the reason for that was that a I had this thought of like, well, if I’m not gambling, like, I can buy concert tickets and put them on a credit card, I can get this midlife crisis, tattoo sleeve and put it on credit cards because I’m not gambling, but that that’s no like, you know what I
mean? Like, I need to be on a budget, like I need to. I need to wipe my debt clean, which I eventually did, but, like, so I wasn’t even though I wasn’t going to gamble. Like, it took me a little bit of time in recovery to really dive in and to to recover, right? Sure. Evolve to work on my character defects, to figure out, you know, I’m never going to know why completely.
But I have an idea of why. Right. But but continuing to work on that to this day, you know, but but the one thing I do know is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing positive that would ever come for me gambling again. And as long as I don’t gamble again, I have a fighting chance. If I gamble again, it’s over.
It’s all over.
Like people say all the time. You know, I have another bet in me. I don’t know if I have another recovery in me.
And you know, that’s not to say for the people that relapse or for the people that you know, we know that recovery isn’t linear. But just for me, I know me that I’ve gone this long, I’ve worked this hard and, like I said, I just know that I can’t do it normally.
I can’t I can’t just place one bet.
SHANE COOK
Okay, so since February of 22, no more bets. And what what keeps you focused and occupied today?
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. So I mean, you know, I it was it was about two and a half years into my recovery where. And in those two and a half years, you know, I, I, I relied heavily on the fellowship. I went to at least one meeting every week, an in-person meeting, sometimes two, you know, I got a sponsor right away.
I dove into, like, long distance walking and, you know, reconnecting with people in my life, you know, but also to just, you know, I always referenced this scene in The Sopranos, the Greatest show of all Time, where Christopher, who also struggled with addiction, the character, he would say, you know, there’s just something about the regular ness of life that I can’t handle.
And that was me for so many years, like I was. I couldn’t just go home and sit and watch TV like I always had to be doing something right, like, I yeah, I never I could never just sit and relax and and I love the fact that I can do that now. Maybe too much sometimes. But you know, just being able to be present.
Right. Like just being able to to be in the moment, not worry about what, what needs to happen a week from now, a month from now, like just living life a day at a time, truly. And about two and a half years in to recovery is when I, I had that initial realization that eventually would lead me to the podcast and to revive.
It was like, where is everybody? Like, why am I seeing the same 10 or 15 faces in these rooms every week? And now it’s like 2024 and gambling is exploding and expanding and yeah, legalized everywhere. And I was just like, where is everybody? So so I was like, I want to start a podcast. Like I, I feel like in these rooms, I was given the answers to the test that I was failing for 20 years.
Right. And it’s like, why aren’t we sharing the answers with everybody? Like there’s plenty of people out there struggling. And so and that was kind of the that was the, the inspiration to start the podcast.
I was seeing the same faces and they’re all 30 years older than me and you know, and just like the, the, the, the amount of ads and just knowing that like gambling is just like gambling is getting destructive, it’s being so accessible, like, there’s no way that we’re the only people in this area of Rhode Island that need help.
SHANE COOK
Right? Right. You know. Yeah. No, I think that’s a great, great observation because you’re coming at it now. You’re going through. Right? You’re you’re noticing the demographics of gay are not supporting or looking like you and supporting that demographic. How can you get out in front of this and help others that are struggling? Boom. Podcasting is really taking off. In general, people are gravitating towards that as another medium of learning, sharing, experiencing, all of those things. So at some point, you made that decision to move into developing the modern meeting?
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. Yeah. Like I just, you know, to your point, like I was the youngest guy by 30 years, a lot of nights. And I’m not that young and, you know, knowing working in the, in the casino industry, right, that I had a front row seat to a lot of this and, you know, in the Asian community, you know, these casinos are building wings of the building just for the Asian community.
Not sure that they love to gamble.
SHANE COOK
And and they have very specific ideas of what that entails. Right.
ADAM LYONS
Oh, of course.
SHANE COOK
Specific games, and, you know, just catering to that, demographic is, I don’t know if that’s a niche market, but it seems like it is. And what you’re telling me confirms that, right?
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. And and in my four years, two months and 15 days in recovery, I’ve never seen an Asian person in any meeting I’ve ever been in. Right. So it’s like, yeah, it’s like it’s like moments like that that really inspired me to start the podcast, you know? And and then once I did, it’s funny because at first a lot of the gay regulars in my group were like, easy guy.
Like, that sounds like steps one, two and 12. Like, you need to work on your own recovery. And and I was like, okay, okay. So and I waited a little bit longer because, you know, I also wanted to be respectful of GA but at the same time, it was like, and this is like kind of stealing a line from Sam.
at Evive, if gambling is going to be accessible in our pockets 24 over seven, recovery needs to evolve. We can’t wait for people to find these old church basements or call these hotlines right. We need digital tools. We need podcasts. We need apps like Evive. We need we need recovery in people’s pockets. If the gambling’s had to be in their pockets, right.
And so and then, you know, once the podcast got going and all of a sudden these people that in GA that were like, you know, opposed to it, they start listening to the episodes and they start hearing the stories and then guess what? Every single one of them came on the podcast and they were me. Yeah, yeah. You know, that’s great.
Sometimes it just takes, you know, it takes a little leap of faith and it takes, you know, to go against the grain a little bit. But then when people see that you’re coming, I’m coming to this with pure intentions, you know what I mean? Like, I, I truly every single time someone DMs me or emails me and tells me a long story about what they’re going through right now, I know exactly what they’re going through.
And that’s that’s a powerful thing to that. I know exactly what you’re going through. I’ve been there. And so let’s talk about it right. Like and and and you know, not everybody needs to start a podcast or go on a or go on a YouTube channel and tell their story like I did. Right. But that is that’s one of the main things of people that are trying to get help.
You got to talk to somebody. You got to let it. Yeah, you got to get that out. And that’s and that’s what those people in Austin did to me on February 8th when they just they opened their arms. And, you know, I remember their shaking my hand and congratulating me. And I’m like congratulating me for what? I’m a degenerate.
I’m a loser. Right. This is a GA meeting. I had no idea. This beautiful fellowship of people that, you know, young, old, male, female, they were all struggling. They’re all compulsive gamblers in recovery. And I found my people. I found my tribe.
SHANE COOK
Right. So. So do you look at, the modern meeting as part of your recovery, then? It’s a it’s a major component that you’re able to go out, have these conversations with others.
ADAM LYONS
So it’s interesting. When I first started it, I didn’t. When I first started it, I wanted to make sure that I continue to go to my meeting all the time. And but what I realized after talking to people and after you know, meeting some people like Sam, which I’m sure we’ll get to in a second, like I realized that the podcast is a part of my recovery, you know, not only just meeting all these people and having these conversations, but if I’m being honest, like being the host of the Modern Meeting and putting my story out there, for better or worse, it kind of also gives me this sense of like, I can’t let all
these people down or like, I can’t let myself down or like, God forbid, like if I ever went back out or if I ever went, if I ever, you know, yeah, it might make for great material on the podcast, but like, it’s not I don’t think I could be strong enough to face that. You know what? I’m not sure.
SHANE COOK
It sure built in accountability for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah. I love that. Tell us a little bit about the the guests that you typically have on model.
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. So, you know, basically the person that took the modern meeting to the next level was Christina Cook of the Broke Girl Society. So for the first 30 or so episodes, it was mostly just people within my network in New England. You know, a lot of people with lived experience, there’s actually some early episodes of people that didn’t struggle with gambling but struggled with other addictions because, you know, we realized very quickly that, like, addiction is addiction and we could learn so much from other fellowships.
And, but lately it’s been mostly gambling and it’s, yeah, it’s people with lived experience, you know, and it’s people who work in the space. It’s people who, you know, I’ve had on some affected, some affected loved ones, you know, friends and family of people who struggle. But yeah, like I’ve had on people like, like Rob Minnick and Louis Ruggiero and some some big names in the space and going to have you on at some point.
And, yeah, it’s, it’s been amazing, you know, and now I’m, you know, I’m, I’m doing I’m doing episodes sometimes where it’s just me and it’s just me talking to the camera, and it’s kind of like, I. I look at it as if I was just doing a really long share in a meeting, okay? Just kind of giving people an idea like I call it like kind of recovery in real time.
So those are those are going pretty well, but those are also like those stressing me out a little bit, and those are a little harder to produce because, you know, if I don’t have anything to say, I don’t I don’t want to just throw something out there, you know what I mean?
SHANE COOK
So but you’re and you’re digging deep for. Yeah. Right. And so it’s, it’s an opportunity to share and be vulnerable. And sometimes there’s stuff totally.
ADAM LYONS
No. And it’s funny, you know, whenever I post something and if I’m nervous about it or if I’m a little, like, squeamish about it, those are always the ones that I get the most feedback on. So I know that, like, if I’m uncomfortable when I hit publish, I know it’s probably going to resonate with people, right?
SHANE COOK
Sure. You know, and I’m sure those listening share that with you and appreciate it too, because they’re sure it’s a real moment. So, oh, go ahead.
ADAM LYONS
I was just going to say, you know, at the end of the day, like.
I’ve chosen this path. I’ve chosen to share my story and to and to help others and to break the stigma. And the only way to do that is to just be honest and just to be as transparent as possible, and to put your ego aside and put your pride aside, like, and just go for it. And, you know, because, I mean, I can’t tell you how many times where, you know, people like Brian Hatch inspired me when I first entered recovery, and I found his podcast and, you know, I’ll never forget the first time, like I heard someone else talking about a gambling addiction and something specific like, you know, over drafting their checking account
or, you know, doing something that I did a thousand times and I thought I was the only person in the world who did it. When I first heard that someone else in my headphones on a podcast, that they did the same thing I did that was medicine to my soul, that that gave me hope. And that’s that’s basically what I’m trying to do, you know?
SHANE COOK
Yeah. That’s great. So let’s let’s shift gears a little bit and talk about Evive. We we have talked to Sam in the past. I think your, your engagement with Evive is, on a different level, in terms of, you know, how you interact as a as a success coach, essentially, I’m going to call it that. I think you have it.
There’s there’s, an actual name for the for the title that you share at. Evive for that.
ADAM LYONS
Yeah. So, after I talked to Christina about, I think she’s episode 35. Okay, I, she had mentioned, you know, you got to talk to this guy, Sam Demello and this. Okay, Evive. And I’m like, yeah, sure. You know, and she kind of gave me the elevator pitch. I was like, yeah, that sounds interesting. And then I had Sam on the podcast, and about halfway through, we had that step brothers moment of like, do we just become best friends?
You know, like, we just it’s just, you know.
SHANE COOK
Well, to be fair, Sam, you said get along with I mean, he’s,
ADAM LYONS
Oh, yeah. No, I mean.
SHANE COOK
He’s very passionate.
ADAM LYONS
I hope he doesn’t hear this because I don’t want to inflate his ego, but, yeah, he’s the best. I mean, but no. So, you know, just the modern meeting and Evive. We just aligned on some of the, you know, foundational things, like, you know, like, recovery is not linear, like, there’s there’s not just one pathway, but also just, like, you know, the importance of the fact that, like, recovery needs to evolve.
This cannot just be a GAA thing. Like it can’t just be, going to a counselor one on one. We need to attack this thing at all angles. And, so, you know, we kind of hit it off, and he told me, like. And at the point at the time, I was still working in restaurants, this is about a little over a year ago now.
And he told me, like, at some point I’m hiring you. If you’re in, I’m like, I am in, I am ready when you are. And then about six months ago he brought me on. And so yeah, my, my official title is the Customer Success Manager. So part of my job is to maintain the relationships we have with the states that we partner with.
But essentially, you know, my my goal every day is to just get as many people to download Evive as possible. And, you know, like Sam mentioned in the previous episode, Evive is a digital app that helps people manage their gambling at any stage of their gambling, which is why, you know, and I don’t want to make this a commercial about Evive.
But truthfully, you know, not everybody wants to quit gambling, right? Maybe they just want to manage their gambling. Maybe they’re curious, or maybe they’re like me and they have quit and they’re doing well, but they want to add another tool into their toolbelt. Right. And that’s essentially what Evive is. But I mean, once you dive into the app, I mean, there’s so much more.
I mean, you know, it’s just the educational tools, this the behavioral awareness where, you know, you’re checking in every day, you’re logging your urges, you’re journaling. You know, if I had something like Evive, who knows where I would have been? I might have gotten in sooner, right? Like, if I was able to log how I’m feeling every day.
And then I took a look back after 30 days, like, okay, so on my days off, I’m anxious. Oh, I wonder why? Because I’m gambling, you know what I mean? Or like, oh, look, in the beginning of March, it looked like I had a strong urge to gamble or I was feeling depressed. Oh, March madness, you know what I mean?
So it’s like those are just two of the many examples of of the ways that Evive can help people.
SHANE COOK
Sure. So we’re going to take a step back and look at digital therapeutics in general. I is what’s what’s the current debate that you engage in around this, you know, pros and cons, all of that. Is it is it primarily the pros? Are there some cons that exist? Do you start to put people in to, be, you know, where they’re coming from and maybe there’s some different solution, or is this kind of a starting point?
You look at it as, you know, this gets people in the door, and then from there you’ve got various pathways that an individual can follow, whether it’s gambling, whether it’s SUD could be any number of things. I think these these are becoming more and more popular when you look out across the entire landscape of digital therapeutics.
ADAM LYONS
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I as you’re talking, I’m trying to think of some cons. And, you know, I think one of the cons when I first jumped on, I was thinking that it was going to be harder for older demographics, maybe to understand the app or to download it or. But guess what? A little sneak peek on our data.
When it comes to females, females over 50 is one of the largest demographics on Evive. So no kidding. So older, older women, you know, and you know, oftentimes the people we talk to it’s you know, they retired and they had some extra money or they lost their husband or, you know, they lost a loved one or, you know, it’s just that later in life, kind of like bored.
Let me gamble a little bit and then all of a sudden it gets out of control. So, you know, we’re seeing we’re seeing people of all age brackets. But but specifically the fact that that older people that might not be as technologically savvy are able to get on Evive. And I think that also speaks to I think Sam knew this.
And that’s why, you know, all of our lessons and all of the educational tools on there that were written by lived experience people, you know, they’re all written at, you know, an eighth grade reading level. And it’s all really user friendly. It’s really accessible. You know, I think digital therapeutics in general, once again, I know Sam is probably said this, but we’re not looking to replace anybody.
Right? Like we’re not looking we don’t think that Evive is the the one way to to to recover. I make the strong argument and I do it too often, probably within the community that like being into being in Evive and posting in the community. It’s good, it’s great, but it’s not sustainable, right? Like there there’s a study that like, you know, I don’t know the exact number, but, you know, when you combine digital therapy or digital tools with professional one on one help, like the odds of of maintaining your recovery.
SHANE COOK
Recovery rates higher. Yeah.
ADAM LYONS
Right. So I think that, you know and and also you know well it makes.
SHANE COOK
Total sense though when you think about it. Because when when you introduce digital therapeutics that that’s an easy entry point for a lot of people. So there’s not a whole lot of friction to get involved, to test, run, read a couple articles, learn more about what’s going on, because you’ve already indicated in your own story you had you were curious about what was going on.
Right? So, and if you introduce a digital therapeutic that might be able to create a pause moment and maybe think a little bit more about what’s occurring here, what’s the harm in that? I mean, I think that’s a great opportunity to create that. What I call a break in. Somebody is thinking a break in somebody’s play, whatever it might be.
ADAM LYONS
Well, and I was always the guy to. When I think of my 20 years of gambling and some of the things that I would say often whenever someone tried to broach the subject of my gambling, I would always use the word self-awareness, and I would always say how self-aware I was right now, just because I’m able to identify that I have a gambling problem.
That doesn’t make me self-aware, because I had no idea the scope of my gambling. Sure, right. That’s why with something like Evive, it almost forces you to become self-aware. If you’re checking in every day and you’re logging your urge, you’re logging, you know, you know, if you’re choosing the manage pathway, right, it’s going to ask you, do you plan on gambling today?
And then if you did, like, how much did you lose? Did you lose more than you expected? Right. If you’re logging that every day, essentially Evive becomes this mirror. Right. And then you look at it and you’re like Okay. Like I can’t what do they say. Like I can’t lie to the man in the mirror. Right.
And and I think that’s like and you know it’s free right. It’s and it’s, and it’s, and it’s something that you can do at your leisure like it’s something like instead of pulling out your phone to gamble, you pull out your phone and you do some, some meditation exercises or you read about the science behind gambling addiction. Like, like I can remember when I first moved out to Vegas, I started a spreadsheet on my laptop of my wins and losses.
Right? Because I was going to take it seriously, and I was going to prove that I can be close to even. And then guess what? Once the numbers started getting more and more in the red, I just stopped using it. Yeah, right. Like I just, so it’s like. But I think Evive, you know, it’s not. It’s not like it doesn’t judge you like it, does it?
Like so as long as you’re just going in and recording it and then you hit submit and then it’s gone. Once you go back and look at your progress, that’s when it’s. You know what I mean? Like it’s you sure. It’s it’s it’s it’s a gentle way, like you said, to kind of take that break and, and maybe get to the root of, of what you’re struggling with.
SHANE COOK
Yeah. Well, it’s and it’s kind of like a fitness app in that way, right? As you, you can check in on, on your progress that you’re making or lack of progress,
there are so many different ways for people to engage with gambling today, whether it’s digital in person, at the, gas station, at the grocery store, I mean, it’s everywhere.
People, regardless of where you are, you probably have an opportunity to engage in gambling. Why shouldn’t we make recovery accessible? And every location you look to. Yeah. So no, I mean, that includes the digital aspect of it, as well as going to our bricks and mortar.
ADAM LYONS
Now, it’s, it’s it’s a it’s a great point and it’s, you know, it’s just, you know, I think the stigma around it is just, you know, it’s unlike drugs and alcohol because it’s so easy to hide. And then there’s the financial aspect of it, right. Like, like a lot of the reason why people don’t want to admit they have a problem is they don’t want to be associated with the fact that they might be broke or they might be bad with money.
And what I tell people all the time is that is three letters EGO. That is your ego. Like like like the bottom line is you have a problem and that’s okay. Let’s let’s find the solution. Because the alternative is you’re going to be like me and you’re going to wait 20 years, right? Like like what’s the trade off?
I always talk about the trade off. Like like what’s the trade off? Having this uncomfortable conversation with someone and then actively trying to get help and saving the rest of your life or trying to do it yourself. And then you’re going to wake up ten years later and it’s going to be a thousand times worse. Yeah. You know, and once again, I had people in my life tell me that at year five and year ten and year 15, I get it.
You know, like it took me how long it took me. And I always have to tell myself that. Right. Like, I, I want to sometimes I want to grab people by the shoulders and say, you know, how come I’m giving you a perfect argument like, I’m telling you what’s going to happen. I’m proof of it. Like, you don’t want to do what I did, and then they ghost you and they’re gone.
And it’s like, people need to. People are going to get there when they get there. But what Evive does, like I said.
SHANE COOK
It’s a good point.
ADAM LYONS
It might help them find it sooner.
SHANE COOK
Sooner.
ADAM LYONS
It’s not going to get them.
SHANE COOK
That’s a good Point.
ADAM LYONS
It’s not going to do it for them. But it might expedite the process for sure.
SHANE COOK
Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s a great way to put it. And I totally appreciate that.
Adam, before we wrap up, do you have any final thoughts?
ADAM LYONS
you know, I got to say, what just popped into my head, which is that, you know, lately we’ve had so much attention, you know, on online gambling and youth gambling. You know, I just want to say, in these brick and mortar casinos right now, they’re all busy, they’re all packed. And let’s not let’s let’s not forget about those people.
Let’s not forget about the person like me in their mid to late 30s who is just living that double life. Let’s not forget about the person who’s sitting at that slot machine broke right now, trying to get people to Venmo the money. Let’s not forget about the people that justify going to Atlantic City for the weekend, because they got free rooms and some food credits, yet they’re going to spend thousands gambling.
We still need to figure out ways to connect with those people. It isn’t just about the online gambling, the accessibility of gambling as we’ve mentioned, is insane. But these these people that are still doing old fashioned gambling, they’re they’re they’re struggling too. Yeah. I you know, I think the more that we, we have conversations about that, you know, I had someone on recently shout out to Mandy, as you know, she she had a destructive, bunch of years gambling and it was all scratch off tickets.
And this is in the this was recently. So, you know, it’s not it’s not just the digital. It’s we got we got to think of. We got to think of everybody. So yeah.
SHANE COOK
No that’s a good point people are.
ADAM LYONS
And I mean, we didn’t touch on my years working in the industry, but, I mean, I got some stories that eventually I need to get some of these, some of my former coworkers on with me, because I’ll just say this, like, not only did we not really have any training on how to deal with this, but I can remember plenty of times where like, we were encouraging people to keep playing, right?
Like not even maliciously, but just you know, the person who has said they would leave and we’d be like, oh, why are you even, you know, I mean, but like, you have no idea. Like when I think about it now, like the person getting up from that one two table with 300 bucks, that might have been the last 300 bucks to their name.
Yeah. And me or someone else might have been like, hey, why are you leaving? Why are you leaving so early? I mean, that’s and that and that still happens, you know? Sure not. You know, so yeah. Yeah, that’s a whole nother story for.
SHANE COOK
It’s a good reminder, though, that for sure. The gambling comes in many forms out there. And always being alert and aware of what’s going on, regardless of the format. Definitely, you can definitely help people.
Well, Adam, it’s been a pleasure. Really enjoyed the conversation. Look forward to our next conversation.
ADAM LYONS
Absolutely appreciate it.
SHANE COOK
Cheers.
SHANE COOK
We love hearing from you, so please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast. You can reach out to us directly via email at wager Danger at Gateway foundation.org. Look for us on Facebook @Recovergateway on LinkedIn @gateway-Foundation, or through our website at Gatewayfoundation.org. Wager danger is supported through funding, in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Use Prevention and Recovery.
And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you or a family member, is struggling with a gambling problem. Call Gateway at (844) 975-3663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.
